< Reality bytes in ‘TRON: Ares’

[THEME MUSIC]

GLEN WELDON: Call it a soft reboot. Tron-- Ares is the third film in the Tron franchise. But it's not a direct sequel, so you can go in pretty clean. What's important is that it flips the script. Instead of humans entering the digital world, this movie sees human-shaped artificial intelligence programs entering our world. It stars Jared Leto as an AI soldier, Greta Lee as a CEO trying to save the world, and Evan Peters as a CEO trying to 3D-print an army or something. I'm Glen Weldon, and today we're talking about Tron-- Ares on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining me today is Jordan Crucchiola. She's a writer and producer and the host of the podcast Feeling Seen on Maximum Fun. Welcome back, Jordan.

JORDAN CRUCCHIOLA: Thank you so much for having me on the occasion of Tron.

WELDON: On the occasion of Tron.

CRUCCHIOLA: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: I wouldn't think of anybody else. Also with us is the co-host of Slate's ICYMI podcast and former Pop Culture Happy Hour producer Candice Lim, showing her face around here. Hey, Candice.

CANDICE LIM: [LAUGHS] Hi.

WELDON: Hey. All right, let's get into it. In Tron-- Ares, Greta Lee is Eve. She's a programmer trying to bring objects from the digital world into the real world to help save lives. The problem? Digital objects can't survive in our world longer than 29 minutes. Meanwhile, a rival programmer, played by Evan Peters, is using the same tech to bring digital objects into the real world, only you can tell he's evil because instead of food sources and disease cures, he's bringing tanks and lasers and lightcycles-- and here's the real issue-- AI soldiers. These include the by-the-book badass Athena, played by Jodie Turner-Smith, and the soulful, broody questioning-his-programming Ares, played by Jared Leto. Peter's evil programmer wants to ensure that his 3D-printed armies can survive past the 29-minute threshold, so he sics his soldiers on Eve, who has finally found the secret, the so-called Permanence Code. Tron-- Ares is in theaters now. Jordan, kick us off. What did you make of Tron-- Ares?

CRUCCHIOLA: I had a fun time at Tron-- Ares. I love Tron. This is, like, the height of visual cool to me.

WELDON: OK.

CRUCCHIOLA: So what I needed from Tron-- Ares was to look like Tron. And it looked like Tron! And listen, I've never been a Jordan Catalano girly a day in my life. And that guy's still doing that thing, whether he's being a human facsimile or he's being a human himself.

WELDON: We're talking about Jared Leto here. Yeah.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah, the Jared Leto of it all. Like, the broody thing, that's never been my thing. So I'm gonna rely on all the other parts of this movie to pull me through. And thank God. Jodie Turner-Smith was the icy program--

WELDON: She was fun.

CRUCCHIOLA: --reconciling with their possible desire for further sentience. And the Tron of it all looked super cool on and off grid. So I got what I needed out of a Tron. And for, I think, maybe-- maybe the first time ever, I will sincerely say, don't skip the 3D if you have the chance. See this movie in a theater. And the 3D, I thought it worked. I thought it was a value-add. And again, I think it's the first time I've ever said it in my life. So technical wizardry crushed it for Tron-- Ares.

WELDON: Got it. OK. Candice, what's your relationship with this film?

LIM: I loved Tron-- Legacy, the 2010 sequel, very, very much. It's a sick movie-- Daft Punk, electric. It's kind of like Divergent and Hunger Games, but a little bit more for the techie side.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

LIM: My whole thing is, like, if you're the type of person who Google Maps their entire route to dinner just to know where to park, you like Tron because there's kind of this--

[LAUGHTER]

LIM: It looks like a map, right? The grid looks like a map. You know, with this movie, I was really excited to watch it. And I like it for what it is. I have a feeling not sure everyone will because, look, I can pretty much, like, pinpoint the moments that either won't make sense, or the lore will kind of make people zone out. But this movie feels very big, probably the biggest of the three, because it's a lot more like Marvely and actiony than, like, small, nerdy sci-fi tech thriller. For example, I just kind of feel like they brag about how much, like, urban infrastructure they are destroying in this movie, but that's that.

WELDON: Yes. Yeah, that's certainly true.

LIM: But I actually think that this movie very much falls in line with two other releases, which is Megan 2.0 and Mission Impossible-- The Final Reckoning. There's something about--

WELDON: OK.

LIM: --the way that all three of these movies are trying to say something about, like, AI entities interacting with our world that I find a little troubling. But I think still, back to the franchise, like, Tron-- Ares does reinvigorate what I love about the franchise. And I think for right now, my ranking still is, though, like, Tron-- Legacy, this one. And I got to be honest, I hate Tron from 1982. I know.

CRUCCHIOLA: Oh, man, I love original Tron.

LIM: I know. I'm sorry.

CRUCCHIOLA: I'm still original Legacy, love Legacy. And then this one--

LIM: I know.

CRUCCHIOLA: --is, like, a not begrudging third--

LIM: Right.

CRUCCHIOLA: --"I'm not mad at it" third.

WELDON: All right. This look you see in my face, folks, is bemusement because I gotta say, I got no lightcycle in this race. As a nerd, it feels very weird to me to have a big sci-fi franchise-- because I have real questions about how popular this franchise is. We'll talk about that. But it's weird for me to have this sci-fi franchise out there and have it miss me as completely as this one has over the years, especially when you consider that when that first film came out, I was a-- literally a 14-year-old boy.

CRUCCHIOLA: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: I was a 14-year-old indoor kid. And I felt targeted by it, but it missed me completely. I didn't see it in theaters for reasons I can't remember. I tried to watch it on VHS many, many times, fell asleep every time, couldn't tell you why. And let me tell you, I hate this feeling. I don't like feeling--

LIM: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: --as emotionally disconnected from anything that has this many lasers and flight mechs and pew-pew-pews in it, because I don't want to feel like my parents. But here we are.

CRUCCHIOLA: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: I saw Legacy. That thing sluiced off my brain the moment it ended. And as we tried to explain to listeners in the intro, you don't need to have, really. It's set in the same universe.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

WELDON: It is a new story with new characters. Some of them are literally related, like, genetically related to previous characters in previous films. But it's off doing, more or less, its own thing. Now, I will say that the thing it's doing has been done better elsewhere. What it's doing is grappling with what it means to be human, in what I consider a very by-the-numbers kind of way. But it's doing it while pelting you, hurling Easter eggs at you--

CRUCCHIOLA: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: --whipping them at you like it is a disgruntled Peter Cottontail hopping down that bunny trail.

LIM: Like they are an identity disk, and you are doing battle.

WELDON: For example, at one point in this film, an OG from the first film, lightcycle, makes its appearance. And when that happened in the theater that I was in, it got one sad, lonely "woo."

LIM: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: And when I heard that, I was like, well, good for you.

LIM: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

WELDON: If you see yourself in the cohort of people who would "woo" at the sight of a lightcycle, run, do not walk, to this film. This film was made--

CRUCCHIOLA: Yes, mm-hmm.

WELDON: --for you. But I heard that "woo," and I was like, I'm happy for you. Also, who are you?

CRUCCHIOLA: Mm.

WELDON: Can I study you? Because it is certainly my impression-- here's where we get to it-- that this franchise has not left a huge cultural footprint. But I'm old and tired. Maybe there's things I don't know about. Maybe there's-- like, there's a book talk. Maybe there's a Tron talk. Maybe there's folks trading spicy S&M Tron fanfic and calling it Master Control. And if there isn't, there should be spin classes with lightcycles, that they should do that, but--

CRUCCHIOLA: That's true.

WELDON: --both of you tell me, how is this a thing? People don't talk about this franchise when there's not a movie in theaters, and I would argue not even much when there is.

CRUCCHIOLA: No, Glen, I'm shocked. When we got the Tron-- Ares teaser, I was like, they really did it. Like, because I love the original. Like, I don't know many people who are big enthusiasts for Legacy that like the original.

WELDON: Right.

CRUCCHIOLA: And I really liked Tron-- Legacy. And I remember, I worked at Wired at the time. And we did a-- obviously, if there's a movie that Wired is gonna do a movie cover on, it should be Tron. And it was this big package that we did, Legacy lightcycle on the cover.

WELDON: Yeah.

CRUCCHIOLA: But it has been one of those beloved. In the aftermath, the internet has found its home with Tron-- Legacy. When the trailer got here, there were elements of it where it was like, whose madlib was this for Tron? And then it was like Nine Inch Nails score. I was like, all right, clock it in. Like, give me the grid, give me the score--

WELDON: Uh-huh.

CRUCCHIOLA: --give me the suits. But it was, as somebody who loves this stuff, I don't-- I don't know where they decided this was a great value proposition. I'm so glad they did. I don't think they're right.

LIM: Yeah.

CRUCCHIOLA: But I'm glad I got a look at another Tron.

WELDON: OK.

LIM: I kind of want to talk about, like, why Tron as a franchise just has never hit at the right time, but also why I love it. So, like, the first thing is one of Tron 1982's biggest advocates is this random ass guy named Roger Ebert. Heard of him?

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

WELDON: Heard of him.

LIM: In 1982, Ebert was four out of four stars on the first Tron movie. And his whole thing is he was just like, it is beyond us, the way that Charlie XCX has always been beyond society.

CRUCCHIOLA: Fair.

LIM: And at some point, at some point, brat society caught up with Charlie. And at some point, Tron 1982 became, like, this cult classic. And then Tron-- Legacy 2010 comes out. I really liked it just because I think it was very different in terms of the type of dystopian culture that I was being flooded with at the time. I think what I liked about that movie, too, is just that it wasn't always about the digital technology and the infrastructure because that movie is about, like, a son looking for his father in the grid, looking--

CRUCCHIOLA: It's about bio digital jazz, man!

LIM: Sure. However, guess who also didn't love that movie as much? Ebert. He literally was like, that's a three out of four. This isn't killing. But I think the thing is, like, I feel a lot of love and, like, affection for this franchise because I have this feeling that Tron exists in this almost, like-- to the left of, like, the Star Wars, Star Trek-- even, sometimes, it gives me, like, Jumanji vibes of, like, it's-- the whole point, it's kind of supposed to be for the ones who are left off the grid-- to me, to me. And I count myself as one of those people. However, the question now is, like, we're in 2025. This is one of those films that they don't make a lot of, which, in a weird way, I like. But I think business-wise, to them, it does not help because they're like, look, if we could turn Tron every two years, we're going to turn Tron.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

LIM: The question is, who wants to? That one random guy.

CRUCCHIOLA: I think that's a great point of what you're saying, is, like, that it doesn't come around every two years, is like--

LIM: Right.

CRUCCHIOLA: --I think a nice thing about it. But it is also that it doesn't come around every two years. it competes with all these other things that seem to. And that hobbles its chances when it's, like, these movies are big and flashy and expensive. And this is, like, the third-- the third time that this massive conglomerate has kind of gone back to the well. And then it's like, feels like a passion project to me, I guess. And I agree with you with Legacy. The thing that I couldn't shake when I was watching it, when I was trying to figure out the first time I watched it through if I liked it, was, like, it's so sincere, I can't not. And I think that was the thing I missed in Ares, is, I enjoyed myself as a pretty time at the movies, and it was a cool experience. But, like, that real sincerity, it was getting at that with what gets to go on with Greta Lee's character.

LIM: Right.

CRUCCHIOLA: But like, I actually wanted more of the Flynn journey from Greta Lee's character. And I don't think it would have been retreading the same ground. I think it would have been getting at the emotional of how this franchise has actually really connected with people.

WELDON: Yeah, OK. Well, it's gesturing toward some kind of emotional center with the relationship between the Greta Lee character and her dead sister-- which is not a spoiler. It's right there in the beginning. But we've already touched on this. But Disney, here's how you do not entice me into a franchise I haven't cared about for decades-- by making the face of it Jared Leto. This guy brings absolutely no arc to this character. Now, the character on paper is a cipher whose arc is the whole movie. He achieves sentience. Then he achieves empathy. Then he achieves altruism. That's big, but nothing about this performance, nothing in his affect changes from the first moment we see him to the end. This character starts the film giving big dirtbag energy. He ends the film giving big dirtbag energy. He is a heatsink of charisma. He gives nothing. He takes a lot. Talk about the Leto of it all, please.

CRUCCHIOLA: My favorite category of performance in anything is person playing robot playing person. Like--

LIM: Sure.

CRUCCHIOLA: --it is so difficult. There's so much subtlety that has to go into that without becoming, like, a parody of just being a droid, who is, like, clunking their way around and misunderstanding the human condition. What you see in the little business of what Jodie is doing in her performance, it seems like that sort of, like, one-note marching robot until-- because she also has an arc. Athena, her character, also has an arc. When you see her start to change, even as a supporting character, you see the effect of what those changes have on her, as opposed to playing it one note the entire time. And the direct contrast of those two security programs-- he's master control, and she's a subset program-- working alongside each other, I was like, they're doing the exact same thing, and I'm getting so much less time with her, and she's giving me so much more. So there is an example of how you can actually pull off a lot with a little bit in that framework of performance. And it was such, like, a negative foil for him that I was seeing it so well done from her, again, in a fraction of the screen time, that I was like, well, would have been cool if she was master control, I guess.

WELDON: No. You make this film about her, you fix this film, I think--

LIM: Yeah.

WELDON: --in a-- from a story level--

CRUCCHIOLA: That would have been cool.

WELDON: --and from a performance level.

LIM: One thing I do really love about the Tron franchise is that it doesn't overcomplicate who is the hero. And it does not really overcomplicate--

CRUCCHIOLA: True.

LIM: --the narrative of the hero's journey. It's very simple, right? The first movie is Jeff Bridges. The second one is his son. My thing with this movie is I could not figure out for, like, two acts who was the real hero.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

LIM: And the thing about the Tron franchise is the hero's the person who is usually thrust into the grid by accident. Greta Lee, like, gets thrown into the grid. She doesn't stay there for long. But it is Ares who ends up, like, going into the grid and, like, having conversations with, like, interesting people, whatever.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

LIM: And my whole thing is, if Ares then becomes, you know, the hero of the film, are we rooting for him? Therefore, are we rooting for AI? And that I did not like because--

CRUCCHIOLA: Interesting.

LIM: --my biggest issue with this movie and Megan 2.0 and Mission Impossible-- Final Reckoning is that we now have these three huge studio movies that are trying to have nuanced conversations about AI, but they are not taking firm enough sides, or they're being generous. And I think, especially in a film where Greta Lee is not just, like, a regular citizen, she's a CEO--

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

LIM: --like, she is, like, actually powerful and rich. She's flying in on a private jet. Like, the sympathy that they have for the people who control AI's, like, destiny in these films is a little too wishy-washy waffling for me. These films want to touch AI, but they don't want to have, like, a very firm stance on it. And just, like, as, like, a viewer, I'm just kind of, like, then, like, what do you want me to do about it? Because I will say-- and this is, like, my-- this is my last sentence of it-- in the movie, there is a part where Ares is given the option, let's say, to possibly choose staying himself as AI or becoming human. He's a little bit intrigued by the concept of, like, human emotions and, like, feeling rain. I won't spoil what he does. I am just saying, though, there are so many movies about AI entities trying to become more human. I'm not seeing a lot of movies about humans trying to be AI. Therefore, I say, is it possible we don't need the AI if they're all trying to be human? We already have humans.

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

WELDON: Let's-- you both talked about the look of this film. And I think we have to talk about the look and the sound of this film. So this film looks slick. Everything is red and black. It's giving you serious, sinister ladybug energy.

LIM: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: Red the blood of angry men, black the dark of ages past. But the slickness is so reflective--

CRUCCHIOLA: Oof.

WELDON: --that I associate it unfairly, of course, with what I have recently started to think of as AI slop, which isn't fair to the folks who worked very hard on this film, but that's just a taste thing for me. It's got this muscle car aesthetic that just misses me. But let's talk about the score by Nine Inch Nails.

CRUCCHIOLA: Oh!

WELDON: Every Tron film has had a high-profile composer. The first one was Wendy Carlos. Second was Daft Punk. This one is Nine Inch Nails. The omnipresence of this score was giving me 80 films that were just awash with music, like Blade Runner, Legend.

LIM: True.

WELDON: It was giving me Vangelis. It was giving me Tangerine Dream. What did you guys make of the score?

LIM: I like it, right? Like, I actually really love the Tron franchise's interaction with music because them getting Daft Punk to do Legacy was huge.

CRUCCHIOLA: Huge!

LIM: To me, I was like, Disney, that's a huge get, because not only are you getting someone cool in the EDM space-- also French-- to, like, score your movie, but it also kind of opened the door of, like, who can score movies?

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah. There was a tide shift with that.

LIM: Totally. And so for them to bring in Nine Inch Nails, I think there's a lot going on here. I like it, first of all, right? Like, Trent Reznor, Atticus Ross, a.k.a. the boys behind Challengers, a.k.a. there was one track here that I was like, that totally is a Challengers B side, but I won't tell Luca.

CRUCCHIOLA: [LAUGHS]

LIM: One of the first movies they ever scored was The Social Network. And I do find this interesting tie between Social Network and Tron because it's kind of about the culture of the internet, not so much the internet itself. And I like that. And so, to me, I was like, this score is very propulsive. It's what I expected. It's sonically propulsive. It's trying to kind of add this, like, techy sonic performance to the actual performance in the movie.

LIM: [NINE INCH NAILS, "AS ALIVE AS YOU NEED ME TO BE"] Give me something to believe in

LIM: All these hands have got a hold of me Give me something to believe in

LIM: I think it was kind of putting a nice magic wand over some parts where the magic may not have been giving as much as it needed to on its own. So I kind think it was this nice trick that the movie could play to compensate for things that it didn't quite have everything of.

CRUCCHIOLA: Right.

WELDON: I have in my notes, do not call this just a music video. Do not say it's just a video game cutscene because I will not be baited into doing that because, for decades now, people who are older and more out of touch than me have been saying that about everything I love. And I will not be that guy. I refuse to be that guy. I can hang with the youth of today. That said, those lightcycle chases, they're kind of a music video. They were kind of a video game cutscene.

LIM: Yeah.

WELDON: Well, we came at this from very different angles. And I don't think we all agree that you should go see it. But now is the time for you to tell us what you think about Tron-- Ares. I say that every week, but this time, I really mean it because I have no idea. Is Tron a thing? Tell me. Find us on the grid at Facebook and Letterboxd. Up next, what is making us happy this week.

WELDON: Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week, what is making us happy this week. Candice Lim, kick us off. What's making you happy this week?

LIM: What's making me happy this week is a movie you're totally going to love, Glen. It's called The Wrong Paris. Woo!

CRUCCHIOLA: [LAUGHS]

WELDON: OK.

LIM: So this is a Netflix movie. Stay with me. Came out last month. It stars Miranda Cosgrove. That's my girl. She's from iCarly.

CRUCCHIOLA: Nice!

LIM: And she plays this farm girl who basically wants to go to Paris to study art, but she doesn't have the cash to get there. So she signs up for this, like, Bachelor-type dating show. They claim that their season is going to be filmed in Paris. The thing is, they don't say which Paris. So they're not in Paris, France. They're shooting in Paris, Texas, a.k.a. near her hometown. However, she's trying to get off the show. She's scheming. She's trying to be like a dud. And then she finds out who the suitor is. And he's kind of into her. She's kind of into him. I'm kind of into the movie because it reminds me of Unreal. Do you remember that show, where it was kind of like--

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah.

WELDON: Oh, yeah. Sure.

LIM: --peek behind the scenes, kind of this darker version of what it's like to really make a show like the Bachelor? And I actually think this kind of hits on very similar tones and, like, moments. And I have to say, I think this is probably the best Netflix rom-com I have watched this year because it's, like, cute, and it doesn't drag. So I think this is very perfect Friday, Saturday night watch at home, pad thai on lock.

WELDON: There we go.

LIM: There you go. That's The Wrong Paris. You can find it on Netflix.

WELDON: All right. Thank you. That is a recommendation-- I don't take rom-com recommendations often unless it's from someone I respect who gets it. So I'm going to check it out.

LIM: Yay!

WELDON: All right. Thank you very much, Candice Lim.

LIM: You're welcome.

WELDON: Jordan Crucchiola, what is making you happy this week, pal?

CRUCCHIOLA: The thing that's making me happy this week is Taylor Swift's new album, The Life of a Showgirl.

WELDON: There we go. Heard of it.

CRUCCHIOLA: Despite the fact that nothing makes Swifties more upset than a new Taylor album, as you might think from watching the internet react to it, but don't believe what you heard.

WELDON: OK.

CRUCCHIOLA: This is another really good Taylor album. It's not my top Taylor album, but it's a really good Taylor album. "Opalite"-- one of the best songs she's ever done. The actual last track, "Life of a Showgirl"-- really excellent stuff. "CANCELLED!", it's going a little far for me. I could leave that track off. "Wood" makes me actually blush too much to almost finish the song because I feel really uncomfortable hearing it. But other than that, the rest are hits. And this is Taylor in her everlasting, incisive singer-songwriter condition. Guess what? She's good at her job. She's done it again. And The Life of a Showgirl, particularly in the car, is making me very happy this week.

WELDON: All right.

LIM: Yeah.

WELDON: Good to hear. Here's hoping that we can get the PCH bump for that plucky little upstart--

CRUCCHIOLA: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

WELDON: --Taylor Swift.

CRUCCHIOLA: It needs all the help it can get out here.

WELDON: Needs all the help she can get. What's making me happy this week is a film called Play Dirty. It is a nasty little heist film that recently came out on Prime. Here's where I say that Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. But I would be recommending this film even if they didn't, because it's directed and co-written by Shane Black, who did Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and The Nice Guys. I love that. It's based on the Parker novels by Donald E. Westlake. I love that. It stars Mark Wahlberg. Did I mention I love the Parker novels by Donald E. Westlake? Look, this isn't revelatory, but it's very solid. It's also very violent. And it's a little funny. Sometimes the stunts look a little CGI, weightless, yes. But you got Tony Shalhoub, you got LaKeith Stanfield, you got Keegan-Michael Key. Wahlberg isn't giving you a lot, but the character is written to be kind of a cipher, so that kind of works, too. There are some misdirects, some very heisty misdirects that got me. Look, if you like heist movies, you got a Saturday afternoon to kill, [LAUGHS] you can start it with The Wrong Paris on a Friday night, and then on Saturday afternoon.

[THEME MUSIC]

WELDON: You could do a lot worse. That is Play Dirty on Prime.

LIM: Nice.

WELDON: And that is what's making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Candice Lim, Jordan Crucchiola, thank you so much for being here.

CRUCCHIOLA: Thank you for having us.

LIM: Thank you.

WELDON: This episode was produced by Mike Katzif and Janae Morris and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon. And we'll see you all next week.

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