Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
STEPHEN THOMPSON: Hey. Before we get to the show, we've got a message for the true Pop Culture Happy Hour heads out there. Take a second and leave the show a rating. It really does help other folks find the show. And we read them, like this one from username PattyOCon. "I love the episodes where the four hosts have something to share and discuss. Today, they talked about the reality show they could win. It just seems like they really like each other and have a sympathetic vibe going." Got to say, PattyOCon, that's actually true. We do like each other. Thank you so much for leaving a comment. And thanks to you for taking a moment to share your thoughts.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
THOMPSON: Taylor Swift has just dropped her album, The Life of a Showgirl, which she's billed as a more joyful and banger-filled follow-up to last year's somber chart topper, The Tortured Poets Department. The Life of a Showgirl touches on Taylor Swift's relationship with fiancé Travis Kelce, while also reflecting on fame, normalcy, the internet, and a simmering beef with a fellow pop star. I'm Stephen Thompson. Today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, we are talking about Taylor Swift's new album, The Life of a Showgirl. Joining me today is NPR music critic and correspondent Ann Powers. Hey, Ann.
ANN POWERS: Hey, Stephen. Welcome to Taylor Swift Day, an annual holiday at this point.
THOMPSON: It is an annual holiday. It is a big, big day in which the main character in our lives is Taylor herself. So we should note that Ann and I are recording this on Thursday, October 2. We've both had The Life of a Showgirl for about 36 hours. You would not believe the agreements that we signed in order to hear this thing ahead of time. This conversation is going to revolve around the album's 12 songs. We haven't seen anything she's released theatrically. We haven't seen any of the videos. And hopefully, she doesn't drop a ton of additional songs, like she did with The Tortured Poets Department. Ann, I've come to think of you as something of a Taylor Swift whisperer. You've written about her extensively. I know you're a fan. I greatly trust your judgment when it comes to Taylor Swift. What do you think of The Life of a Showgirl?
POWERS: Well, I was excited when she announced this album because I am also a massive fan of Max Martin and Shellback, her two collaborators on this record, the Swedish producers with whom she worked on her incredible run of banger-saturated albums about 10 years ago now.
THOMPSON: You're talking about Red, 1989.
POWERS: Exactly. So I was really happy that she was reuniting with them. She made this record, by the way, while she was touring with her gigantic, record-setting Eras Tour. She would apparently pop over to Sweden every now and hang out with the guys.
THOMPSON: As one does.
POWERS: As one does. To me, that process is so interesting because while she is staging this massive extravaganza, then she is retreating into the studio with a very small core of collaborators. I mean, besides Max and Shellback, there's barely anyone else on this record. There's a string section here and there. I am so interested in her musical evolution as well as her mythical evolution. I'm into the music on this record.
THOMPSON: Yeah, I'm kind of in awe of her executive functioning.
POWERS: Yeah, it's intimidating.
THOMPSON: Her ability to juggle many large tasks really does put me to complete shame. I think this is a really interesting record. Because I think in some ways, it's definitely going to be discussed as kind of her bangers record, right? Like, she's kind of billed it as such. This is a pivot away from the kind of somber, autumnal vibes you that she explored with Aaron Dessner and Jack Antonoff, you know, on the Folklore, Evermore, and especially The Tortured Poets Department. And it is a pivot away from that sound. I don't think it's a pivot 100%--
POWERS: No.
THOMPSON: --of the way from that sound.
POWERS: I agree, and especially not thematically, it's not a pivot. I mean, it's a pivot from the heartbreak of Tortured Poets. But as you well know, there are some themes Taylor can never let alone.
THOMPSON: Yeah. And I think, in some ways, it feels like-- and the title gives it away. This is the life of Taylor Swift. This is, like, the state of Taylor Swift. And as such, it contains multitudes, right? It is capturing where she is in her life. She is newly engaged. She's very much in love. That thematically is a big pivot away from especially The Tortured Poets Department. But she's still finding room on this record for other themes. You have nostalgic heartbreak, which is a big Taylor Swift topic that she has come back to before. There's a song called "Ruin the Friendship" that is about regretting not kissing someone.
POWERS: Very classic Taylor melodrama, finding out later that her object of affection has passed away.
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "RUIN THE FRIENDSHIP"] It was not convenient, no
POWERS: But I whispered at the grave Should have kissed you anyway, ooh And it was not
THOMPSON: Honestly, that's one of my favorite Taylor Swift vibes. I like nostalgic Taylor Swift much, much more than here is what it's like to be Taylor Swift. I think when she is at her best, she uses specificity to signal something universal. And sometimes when she is singing about massive fame, when she's singing about haters, when she's singing about what it's like to be Taylor Swift, her stuff can leave me a little cold. And this record intermittently does that. But it contains a lot. There are Travis Kelce songs. There is a fairly sexual Travis Kelce song.
POWERS: Uh, yeah. There's actually-- it's a hilariously sexual nod to Sabrina Carpenter, her-- who's also on this record. That's a flat-out bawdy, risque, you know, blues queen, nasty metaphor kind of song. I think it's very, very funny. It's called "Wood" in case anybody wanted to know.
THOMPSON: You can kind of suss out the intricately nested metaphor.
POWERS: It's not about interior decoration. It's not.
THOMPSON: And it's kind of funny. I mean, like, she is definitely-- Sabrina Carpenter pops up on the title track, which closes the record. But Sabrina Carpenter does feel like a little bit of an influence at a couple points on this record, including both Sabrina Carpenter's new record and Taylor Swift's new record contain fairly cringey references to thighs.
THOMPSON: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "WOOD"] Forgive me, it sounds cocky
THOMPSON: He ah-matized me and opened my eyes Redwood tree, it ain't hard to see His love was the key to open my thighs
POWERS: I don't mind Taylor's-- I actually-- maybe it's because they are these, you know, parasocial figures in our lives. It's just makes me laugh because they play out their public relationship-- I mean, Travis and Taylor do-- as a kind of a comedy routine in some ways. So I can kind of imagine them jokingly coming up with this. I mean, Travis does not have a writing credit on that song, thank goodness. But it's almost like an extension of what I think they may be like. And I've never met Travis Kelce. And I don't know anything about their relationship, really. But the good humor that runs throughout this album, and especially the songs about him, I value that. I don't know. I like funny Taylor. I think sometimes she's a little clunky, though, in her humor, which I know, Stephen, bothers you. But you also kind of like the clunkiness, right? You're, like, a fan of her lines that kind of woof, you know?
THOMPSON: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I would say I'm necessarily a fan. I will cringe as hard as anybody when she unleashes a clunker. But I do think that her tendency to be-- oh god, I'm not using this word deliberately as, like, an Easter egg-- but to be fairly fearless in her songwriting, I think her willingness to uncork a groaner is part of what makes her songwriting distinct and one of the things that makes her the world's biggest pop star. Like, as much as she is imitated, as widely as you will hear echoes of Taylor Swift's speak-singing that have been echoed by an Olivia Rodrigo, that have been echoed by a Sabrina Carpenter, she still writes songs that don't sound like they could come from anybody but Taylor Swift, even when she is not writing about specifically being Taylor Swift and being massively famous and being in the relationships that she's been in.
POWERS: I'm not saying that she's going to take a break. although There is a line on one of these songs about wanting to, like, move to the suburbs and play basketball with her future children. So who knows?
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "WI$H LI$T"] Got me dreaming 'bout a driveway with a basketball hoop
POWERS: Boss up, settle down, got a wish list I just want you
THOMPSON: You're talking about "Wi$h Li$t."
POWERS: Yes, I am. And that is a dream she expresses-- and a realizable dream in some ways, not entirely. Because it's not like Travis Kelce is going to retire from his own celebrity either.
THOMPSON: Yeah. He's about to retire from football, but he's not going to retire from podcasting.
POWERS: Exactly. But one thing that I love about this record, actually, is that it feels to me like a culmination. As a huge Max Martin and Shellback fan, the three of them weave in both references to kind of like the entire history of post-- maybe post-'70s pop and the entire history of Taylor. You just mentioned the song "Wi$h Li$t." If you listen to just the cadence and think of the sentence structure of the verses on that song, it is a total throwback to "Style," which is her supposedly Harry Styles referencing song from 1989, a record she Max and Shellback. "Eldest Daughter," that is a beautiful, timeless ballad that I know will now be the first dance at weddings here in Nashville for, like, the next 20 years.
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "ELDEST DAUGHTER"] So many traitors
POWERS: Smooth operators But I'm never going to break that vow I'm never going to leave you now
THOMPSON: And that's your track 5. So you know she cares very deeply about what she's saying in that song.
POWERS: Yes, exactly, exactly. But that song, you know, reaches all the way back to one of her most famous lines, "a careless man's careful daughter" from back in her country days. God, I hate this because I don't want to, like, stan Taylor or parasocial out with her. But I think the expressions of love toward Travis Kelce are really touching, you know? And the kind of open-heartedness on the song like "Eldest Daughter" is really, really moving. This record very artfully kind of moves through Taylor's own career musically to present this culmination and land her where she is now. And I love that because it's just really such artful pop music-making. I mean, you can say she writes clunkers. That's cool. But the sound on this record is airtight, I think.
THOMPSON: Yeah. And that's where I want to call out the song "Opalite," which comes fairly early in the record and has this big, bright, theatrical quality. It's a true, like, just fully fleshed out earworm.
THOMPSON: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "OPALITE"] Sleepless in the onyx night
THOMPSON: But now the sky is opalite Oh, ah, ha, ha, ha Oh, my Lord Never made no one like you before Oh, I'm so glad we're past The Tortured Poets Department.
POWERS: Yeah, and it's got that Max Martin thing, right? So here's the thing. He is always thinking about how what he's doing connects to the present moment but also to previous moments in pop. So that song has these kind of almost like '50s style-- like, there's that chorus. And please, anyone listening, if you know where that (SINGING) whoa, oh, oh, oh-- (SPEAKING) sorry, I'm not tuneful-- where that comes from. It's haunting me. It's from another song. But it's also so evocative of like, the musical Grease or something like that. And then add that in to the very contemporary kind of production, the standards on this song, and you have a song that just seems to be everywhere all at once, everything everywhere all at once. That's what Taylor's all about.
THOMPSON: I think for me, that's one of the real standouts on the record. Do you have other favorite songs?
POWERS: I do like "Father Figure." That has a very recognizable interpolation. There's a writing credit for George Michael. So it plays off--
THOMPSON: It's George Michael's creepiest song.
POWERS: Creepiest and most beautiful.
[LAUGHTER]
POWERS: I can't help it. It's a gorgeous song, you know? But she actually does something fascinating with this song, which is she leans into the creepy, Stephen, right? And she uses this age-inappropriate relationship trope to call out a former mentor, who clearly is a man, in the music industry and in the end, basically say, hey, I am more powerful than you. I am now your father figure, which is such a neat little trick.
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "FATHER FIGURE"] Who covered up your scandals?
POWERS: Mistake my kindness for weakness and find your card canceled I was your father figure You pulled the wrong trigger This empire belongs to me Leave it with me She does it in a very mean-spirited way but also in such a beautiful way musically. So it's just a fascinating twist. And again, it's a reach back for Taylor because, to me, this is "My Tears Ricochet," which is a more vulnerable expression of being taken advantage of. But here, she's like, no, I'm on top. I'm the father figure. And I find that enjoyable in a petty way.
THOMPSON: Oh, absolutely. And we'll get to the slight mean streak that runs through this record.
POWERS: Slight, oh my goodness.
THOMPSON: Before we get entirely away from the Travis Kelce of it all, there's a song late on this record that I do love called "Honey."
POWERS: Oh, yeah.
THOMPSON: And that is a perfect example of when Taylor Swift is at the top of her songwriting game. Because that is a song that is very specific to her relationship with Travis Kelce that is illuminating about her relationship with-- it's revealing a detail we didn't have before. But it's doing it in a way that feels universal and is speaking to a larger truth of, like, when these words are spoken in bad faith, they mean something very different--
POWERS: Than when they're spoken in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "HONEY"] You can call me honey if you want
POWERS: Because I'm the one you want I'm the one you want You give it different meaning 'cause you mean it when you talk Sweetie, it's yours, kicking in doors Take it to the floor Give me more Buy the paint in the color of your eyes Of your eyes I just have to say about "Honey," it also highlights an aspect of this album that I really value, which is her singing. I mean, remember way back 100 million years ago when Taylor Swift first became a star and people like me, who-- I was writing for the LA Times at the time-- were like, can this girl even sing? Like, people did not think Taylor Swift could sing.
THOMPSON: Oh, yeah, because she was kind of famously unsteady live performer. And she is not anymore.
POWERS: No, not at all. And I think the fact that they made this record while she was on tour, while she was obviously taking very good care of her voice and really deploying her voice every night, you know, in this very powerful way-- she just has so much fun singing these songs. I mean, even the way she sings that word "honey," you know, she kind of drags it out. And it reminds me of, like, mod '60s, you know, Austin Powers theme song kind of way, you know? Or similarly, the very beginning of this record, on "The Fate of Ophelia," the first little bit of that song where she's talking about someone-- Travis-- calling her on the telephone, she does it in this, like, mock seductive, woozy, swoony way.
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "THE FATE OF OPHELIA"] I heard you calling on the megaphone
POWERS: You want to see me all alone As legend has it, you are quite the pyro You light the match to watch it blow The control she shows as a singer in those moments, it's very theatrical, which I think is a really important thing about this record. And I love the way she sings on this. I think she's ready for her Broadway show now.
THOMPSON: Ann, you and I have talked offline that there are a couple of songs, particularly late on this record, that don't work for us as much. I think the first half is pretty solid.
POWERS: Right. Yeah, absolutely, more than solid.
THOMPSON: Yeah. But you get into the back half, and there are a couple of choices made that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of. And I--
POWERS: I think you're more troubled than I am. I'm sort of troubled for her more than troubled by her. But we can get into that. We can get into that.
THOMPSON: Well, I'm going to talk about the song "Actually Romantic," which is pretty clearly-- and obviously, we're talking about this on Thursday. There has not necessarily been a gigantic amount of online discourse--
POWERS: No, not yet.
THOMPSON: --about the contents of this record. By the time this episode drops, I suspect there will have been. Charli XCX had a song on Brat called "Sympathy is a Knife." Charli XCX's partner is in The 1975.
POWERS: Husband now-- I think they're married.
THOMPSON: Yes. Taylor Swift famously dating Matty Healy. She wrote many ponderous songs about it.
POWERS: I love those songs. But anyway--
THOMPSON: "Sympathy is a Knife" is a little bit about, like, seeing this incredibly powerful and successful person backstage, having an insecure response to it. To me, it is much more of a song about Charli XCX's own insecurities than it is any kind of diss track against Taylor Swift. Well, Taylor Swift has a song on this new album called "Actually Romantic," which I suspect is going to resonate with a lot of people. It's certainly going to be talked about a lot. To me, it is a huge overreaction. It's a good song that bugs me.
THOMPSON: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "ACTUALLY ROMANTIC"] I heard you call me Boring Barbie when the coke's got you brave
THOMPSON: High-fived my ex and then you said you're glad he ghosted me Wrote me a song saying it makes you sick to see my face
POWERS: Yeah, I understand that. And again, this is where I have to kind of walk away from the parasocialness of it all.
THOMPSON: Always a good idea.
POWERS: I know, definitely Taylor revisiting, honing, perhaps, you know, getting repetitive on a theme that she's explored before. She's got this whole thing about, like, I am not bothered by you. And this is when she clearly is. But--
THOMPSON: It's kind of a dril tweet in song form.
POWERS: It is.
THOMPSON: Like, don't put in the newspaper that I was mad. Yeah.
POWERS: But I just-- there's a few funny lines in this song. I think the line comparing the antagonists in the song to a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse--
THOMPSON: Purse dog, yeah.
POWERS: --is actually-- it is funny.
POWERS: [TAYLOR SWIFT, "ACTUALLY ROMANTIC"] And I know you think off vicious
POWERS: But it's precious, adorable Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse That's how much it hurts If you can remove yourself from the gossip, the song, it's overplayed. It is cartoonish. But she gets some zingers in there. And maybe this is where I should just state my higher concept for this album. Because what I've realized after many years, way too much of my life thinking about Taylor Swift at this point, is that at least since she started working with Max Martin and really went toward the pop and started building herself as a pop star, every Taylor Swift album works on at least two levels. It works on the level of autobiography, as we're discussing. And then it also works on the level of the concept. So the way this is working on Showgirl, I think, is that she's created this character, the tough-as-nails, you know, grease-paint-wearing, my feet hurt from dancing, but, you know, the show must go on-- I really wonder if in this song, for example, or in the song "Cancelled," where she stands up for her girl squad in ways that some people might find disturbing, if she's leaning into that character. She's at least finding courage in that character. I mean, she is reaching back to Bette Davis in All About Eve or Elizabeth Berkeley in the movie, Showgirls. These are those women who live for the fame, who live for the lights. And can we separate Taylor from that character? That's my question for you.
[LAUGHTER]
THOMPSON: Well, Ann, I think it is safe to say this is the final conversation anyone will have about this album.
[LAUGHTER]
POWERS: I'm glad we settled it all. I'm so glad we figured it all out.
THOMPSON: Resolved.
POWERS: We're done. Thank you, Taylor. You know, if you want some on buying a mega mansion in one of the suburbs here in Nashville, call me. I can find you that basketball hoop. I can.
THOMPSON: [LAUGHS] All right, well, we want to know what you think about The Life of a Showgirl. Chances are everyone will have an opinion. Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Ann Powers, thank you so much for being here.
POWERS: It's always a pleasure. I will see you next year on Taylor Day for our annual day of service.
THOMPSON: Oh, man. When she drops her 13th album-- you know how she is about the number 13. That thing is going to have some thought put into it. Just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour+ is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janae Morris, and Mike Katzif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson. And we will see you all next time.
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