Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
LINDA HOLMES: Hey, before we get to the show, if Pop Culture Happy Hour has ever helped you explain Barbenheimer, survive a Marvel phase, or pretend you understood Succession, do us a favor and leave a five-star review. Channel your inner culture critic and let us know why the show. Thanks.
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HOLMES: In the new Netflix series Wayward, the picturesque town of Tall Pines is home to a facility that promises to fix troubled teens shipped in from far and wide. The deeply creepy woman who runs the place is only more unsettling because she's played by Toni Collette. And when a cop moves to town with his wife, who's a graduate of the facility and an acolyte of its leader, he starts to think something is very, very wrong. I'm Linda Holmes, and today we're talking about Wayward on Pop Culture Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
HOLMES: Joining me today is Kristen Meinzer. She co-hosts The Nightly on Hatch+. Hey, Kristen.
KRISTEN MEINZER: Hey, Linda. How are you?
HOLMES: I am fine. Also with us is journalist and host of the podcast Seated, Tre'vell Anderson. Welcome back, Tre'vell.
TRE'VELL ANDERSON: Hello, hello!
HOLMES: Hello! So Wayward is a horror thriller about the troubled teen industry. It looks at this reform school called Tall Pines Academy from basically two different angles. We follow two teenage girls, Abbie and Leila, played by Sydney Topliffe and Alyvia Alyn Lind, who end up there as students/inmates. Their parents have been promised that their fairly benign behavioral problems can only be sorted out by the very strict, very secretive school, supervised by the Tall Pines boss, Evelyn-- dun, dun, dun. Evelyn is played by Toni Collette. The show's creator, Mae Martin, plays a young cop named Alex. He moves to town and joins the local police force. His pregnant wife, Laura, was once a Tall Pines Academy kid herself. She's played by Sarah Gadon. She remains close to Evelyn, who has gone so far as to set the couple up with a house to live in. Eventually, particularly, as the birth of their child approaches, Alex starts to worry about his wife's continuing closeness with the weirdest person he has managed to meet since he started his new job. As Alex settles in, he sees a lot of weird stuff going on, specifically involving kids from the academy. Meanwhile, Leila and Abbie are realizing from the inside just how bad it is, from creepy fellow students who have adopted attitudes of total subservience to unsettling academy staff who have animal nicknames like Rabbit. Wayward is streaming on Netflix now. This is a lot of television show in eight episodes. Tre'vell, I'm going to start with you. How'd you like it?
ANDERSON: You know, I actually really enjoyed it. And I have to say, I'm not typically a fan of the horror thriller suspense. I'm one of those people with really bad anxiety when it come to those things. But obviously being able to start and stop on Netflix helped me with this. But it was something that I came to it for Toni Collette to see, you know, the legend do what she does.
HOLMES: Indeed.
ANDERSON: But I also, in the process, fell in love with Mae Martin as an actor and a writer and a creative voice. I really, really enjoyed it. I think it's definitely something that folks should check out for sure.
HOLMES: Yeah, I always think with Netflix, like, you don't have to watch it big binge just because they release it that way.
ANDERSON: Right.
HOLMES: Like, you can watch a little bit and then walk away. I sometimes find that to be the most pleasurable and, as you mentioned, least anxiety-producing way to watch some of these things. Kristen, what did you think of Wayward?
MEINZER: Well, I just gotta say, you don't have to binge it all at once, but I did it all in two sittings because I really enjoyed the setup of the show. I love any couple coming to a small town and either falling in love or falling apart, or being haunted, or whatever happens to a couple in a small town. I want to see it.
HOLMES: It's a classic.
MEINZER: And I especially love the cult-like reformatory school. I loved all of the cast. I was really wowed by Sydney Topliffe, who plays Abbie. I thought she was quite good. I've always loved Mae Martin. Now matter what Mae Martin does, I'm in. And of course, Toni Collette, as Tre'vell was saying, like, yeah, Toni Collette. But I will confess I was a tiny bit confused at the beginning about whether we were dealing with multiple timelines. I was a little confused with the kids with the school versus the couple moving into the town. I was confused about a couple of different things, like I don't think I totally, by the end, understood all the toads.
HOLMES: Yeah. [CHUCKLES]
MEINZER: There's a lot mention of toads in this, a lot of sightings of toads. And I do wish that our main protagonist, Alex, was more fierce, less timid, less reactionary, and more kick-ass. I just-- ugh! There were so many points where I'm like, Alex! Be kick-ass! Come on! Do it!
[LAUGHTER]
HOLMES: I get that. It's interesting because I really liked this as a mood piece. I like the beginning when you're getting to know the kids, and you're getting to know Alex and Laura, and certainly when they're introducing Evelyn. Evelyn rides this weird, like, semi-recumbent bike thing.
[LAUGHTER]
HOLMES: And it's so perfect because it's so creepy, and yet, it's so dorky. Evelyn wears these big tinted sunglasses. It's very like-- on the one hand, it's all very innocuous, and it also just comes off very creepy. And I really like how they set it up. I do think that, like, if you're the kind of person who is very annoyed that on Lost they never explained, like, who was shooting at the outrigger, like, I think there will be parts of this show where you'll get to the end and be like, wait a minute, you didn't answer all my questions. I think as a mood thing, it's extremely effective and, I think, as getting the general sense of, like, how fearful these kids at this reformatory school are and how, you know, punitive the school is. And obviously, this, in a way, connects back to some documentary pieces that are on Netflix and elsewhere about this, quote unquote, "troubled teen industry" and how awful it is. It's not a lot better than, you know, how it's portrayed here in the more straightforward elements. So I really liked the setup of it and the mood of it. I think I have maybe in common with Kristen a sense that, like, I got to the end, and there were some pieces that I didn't think they ever really explained, like, why is that in there? Because when you're setting up a creepy situation, you obviously use a lot of things where it's, like, ooh, look, this isn't that creepy. I do think you get to the end, it's like, sorry, what were the toads about? Like, I get most of this. What was the situation with the toads? Tre'vell, how did you feel about Alex as a main character?
ANDERSON: You know, I appreciated the kind of meek approach to that character, you know, like, there absolutely were moments where I was like, OK, stand up. Like, you know, fight back. Like, do the thing.
HOLMES: Yeah, right.
ANDERSON: But I think it was a great character for me to be the one introducing us to this, you know, cult, introducing us to the various, you know, eccentricities of this world. And I also think that Mae Martin-- I've known them primarily as a comedian. And so I think there are these, like, small, subtle, like, comedic moments--
MEINZER: 100%.
ANDERSON: --that flourishes, that pop up, that they carry off and embody, you know, so well at many moments.
HOLMES: Yeah. You know, I share that feeling of like, you got to get out of here, you got to do something. This is all super terrible. But that's, like, horror protagonist in some ways. And I look at this character, especially since he's in law enforcement-- like, he's not necessarily trained to immediately be like, I'm instantly going to just assume that everything is totally out of hand. He's got that, like, sense of there is order, and I can restore order in an ordinary way. I was also really interested in the fact that Alex is trans they talk about a couple of times. And it certainly is acknowledged and it's part of the story. But it's interesting to me how it almost seems to play into the sense that when he first gets to this town he has this feeling like almost, like, maybe the people are, like, too accepting or, like, he doesn't really trust them, which is a weird, like, feeling. But that's the vibe that I got is that he's almost, like, uneasy about how much everybody's, like, I don't know, all completely on board.
ANDERSON: But there are-- everyone is also, like, very much so, trying to let him know that they're on board. You know what I mean?
HOLMES: Right, exactly. Yes.
ANDERSON: There's a moment where the Sheriff or whoever the main cop person is, right? is introducing him and does this quick stumble, you know, into the correct pronoun.
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-: - Oh, let me introduce you to everybody. Hey, everyone gather around. This is Alex Dempsey. I want you to make him feel very, very well.
[END PLAYBACK]
ANDERSON: Right. There are these other moments where Alex's partner, their alarm goes off for them to take their shot. And they're like, yep, same time every day-- you know, these affirming moments that I think pop up. But I also-- I'm not sure that if you are just, you know, coming to this randomly and you don't know much about who Mae Martin is outside of this, I think those are, like, storytelling inclusion elements that I found surprising--
HOLMES: 100%, yes.
ANDERSON: --even as someone who is attuned to them specifically. And I thought that was beautiful.
MEINZER: Yeah.
HOLMES: Yeah, I think it works both as a piece of storytelling, and also there are moments where it has almost the Get Out, "I would have voted for Obama three times." Like, there's that thing of like, OK, is this person trying a little too hard to make sure that I know how, like, comfortable they are in a way that can come off uncomfortable? But as you say, it's also just a way of storytelling and including in the story that this is part of Alex's, you know, life and story.
MEINZER: But also it does hearken back to what is a troubled teen school fixing. And in a lot of cases, a troubled teen school is fixing a kid who does not conform to certain--
HOLMES: Right, exactly.
MEINZER: --standards of straightness or behavior or, again, straightness. And the fact that one of Laura's friends that she went to Tall Pines Academy with is somebody who is gay but is celibate. And that's something that's touched on a few different times on this show of, like, who's gay? Who's not gay? Who's bisexual? And is that really what makes them, quote unquote, "troubled" to their parents? So it makes sense to me that there would be a certain kind of-- I don't know if acceptance is the right word, but understanding that this is part of our town. This is part of the population we have here.
HOLMES: Especially since the population is so largely made up of people who have gone through this school. Like, so much of the town is adjacent to the school in various ways. But I think you're exactly right that it's very clear that the kids who are coming there, I mean, some of them are in more, you know, crime-adjacent trouble, I guess I would say. Like, they've done more petty crime or whatever. But absolutely, some of them are just kids who aren't turning out the way that their parents hoped they would. Or, you know, honestly, in the case of Leila, she's partly there because her parents have never been capable of giving her any kind of support or life. And so she is the one who ends up being treated like she's troubled.
MEINZER: And she's bisexual, too, which is--
HOLMES: And she's bisexual.
MEINZER: Yeah. I also just have to say, as far as the troubled teen oeuvre, when Abbie is first taken from her bedroom off to the school, did you guys read Paris Hilton's memoir or watch the documentary about her troubled teens?
HOLMES: I've seen a couple of documentaries. I think that's pretty true to what happens--
MEINZER: Yeah.
HOLMES: --in a lot of these places. They do come and take kids in the middle of the night.
MEINZER: Yeah, it seemed so spot on. It was like a kidnapping. And that's what happened to Paris Hilton. And I think some people watching the show might think, ooh, it is a horror movie. But that's pretty much spot on with what people have experienced.
ANDERSON: And I also think as we're talking about, you know, the young folks, right, in this project, they're all doing great work. Like, I feel like they all, you know, rise to the occasion of the angst that we want of, you know, you're playing opposite Toni Collette, OK, you better bring it. And they do. And I think they help lock you in to this kind of-- you mentioned watching it in two sittings, right? They kind of help lock you into this world and the anxieties and the fears with also unique character points for each of them that I thought was beautifully done.
HOLMES: Yeah. Well, the girl who plays Stacey, who is initially Abbie's roommate--
ANDERSON: Yes.
HOLMES: --you know, every movie or show about a facility has the overly cheerful roommate. I feel like that is a classic. When I saw Stacey in this, I just thought, oh, this is that-- except this is a spin on the overly cheerful roommate that winds up playing into the sort of the cult element. But I think that kid is just unsettling. And I think that's exactly what that part calls for, is the performance in that that is unsettling [LAUGHS] 'cause I looked at her and I was-- you just keep going, ugh, ugh, ugh!
ANDERSON: Yeah, but you don't want to look away at the same time.
MEINZER: No.
HOLMES: Yeah.
ANDERSON: She's definitely a highlight for sure.
HOLMES: She does it perfect, that actresses, Isolde Ardies. I feel like I should say her name since I was just praising her work.
MEINZER: Yeah, she's great, but I agree with Tre'vell. All the kids are so good. They hold their own. They are not a monolith. They each have their own backstory, their own personality, and their own fears and strengths. And the show really illustrates how, in a lot of ways, the reform school is making them criminal in a way they never were before the school. And the only job to survive is to put on a happy face and pretend you don't have pain, even as maybe you're becoming more and more troubled while you're there.
HOLMES: Yeah. I got to say, it's remarkable how much charisma it takes to be in the Toni Collette part in something like this and in some ways be doing a lot of what people expect you to do, like, eventually giving very philosophical arguments for why you're harming people and very, like, but this is all for your own good. And there's not a ton in this character that I think is hugely surprising from a script perspective. I don't think what you eventually learn about her is very different from what you would maybe, as a person who's seen a lot of TV and movies, say, oh, she's probably going to turn out to say a lot of stuff like this and a lot of stuff like this. But the range of Toni Collette is such that she can bring a very odd kind of horror sensibility to this, as with the horror that she's done in the past, you know, your Hereditary and all that stuff, which I only know from seeing little parts of it because I'm not going to watch the whole thing because it's too scary.
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HOLMES: But even like across her career, when you've seen her, you know, she's been in dramas. She's been in Knives Out, in which she's so funny. She does a little bit of everything. And here, she really has to be the center of gravity.
MEINZER: Yeah. And l love what you said about her tricycle that she rides around in her glasses because you're this dynamic leader, but you're such a dork.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
HOLMES: Exactly.
[LAUGHTER]
HOLMES: Exactly. Many charismatic leaders are also dweebs. Like, that is true.
MEINZER: [LAUGHS]
ANDERSON: I mean, she is the reason why I think, you know, her face, right, Evelyn's face is the poster image for this. And I do think that she's definitely the center, definitely the sun. But there's so much going on around her, right, that I also think is what's going to keep people. You know what I mean? Especially if you think that she's doing something she always does, for example.
HOLMES: No, I don't think she's doing anything she always does. She's just bringing, I think, a sort of-- like I said, there's a charisma that it takes. To play a role and convince people that all these other people who work for her and this entire town would essentially be in her thrall, it takes a lot of charisma just to get people to follow you, whether it is for great reasons or less great reasons. But I am happy that Mae Martin created this 'cause as Tre'vell talked about, I'm also familiar with them mostly from comedy and from either stand-up, or they had a really nice role in The Flight Attendant with Kaley Cuoco.
MEINZER: That's how I got introduced to Mae Martin. I was like, ooh, who is this?
HOLMES: Yeah.
MEINZER: Just jumps off the screen in that show.
HOLMES: Super, super good in The Flight Attendant and have made other shows and other projects and stuff like that. But I think, like, I really like this as a kind of a creative-- I guess, it's not the most obvious thing for Mae Martin to do next, and that's why I sort of dig it, you know?
ANDERSON: Yeah, absolutely.
MEINZER: OK, so the song "In The Pines," were you all familiar with that song before this? OK. So I was familiar with it. Dolly Parton sings a version of it. I love Dolly. Loretta Lynn sings a version of it. I'm just going to recommend to the listeners if they don't want any spoilers, and you don't know the song "In The Pines," don't listen to it before this.
[LAUGHTER]
MEINZER: Because the lyrics actually pretty much tell the whole story and give you spoilers.
HOLMES: Oh, oh!
MEINZER: So, yes.
HOLMES: Well, now I got to go listen to it. It is a beautiful song.
ANDERSON: I'm like, oh, I need to pay attention.
MEINZER: Yeah, but if you don't know the song, that's fine. But if you do know the song, just don't think about the lyrics. Don't think about the lyrics.
[LAUGHTER]
HOLMES: But maybe after you watch the show, as we are now.
MEINZER: Yes, it's a little spooky, and it kind of gives away the story.
HOLMES: All right, love it. And I will say, I do think they leave the door open enough that if they decided to come back, they could come back. But if it didn't happen, you wouldn't feel like they didn't finish the story.
MEINZER: But if they do come back, I want to find out about those toads.
HOLMES: I agree.
ANDERSON: There is a lot of opportunity left. Absolutely.
HOLMES: All right, tell us what you think about Wayward. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Tre'vell Anderson, Kristen Meinzer, thank you so much for being here to talk to me about toads.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
[LAUGHTER]
MEINZER: Thank you.
HOLMES: And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour+ is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link. It's in our show notes. This episode is produced by Carly Rubin and Mike Katzif and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes. We will see you all next time.
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