< Body horror and elite athletes make a grisly pairing in ‘Him’

[THEME MUSIC]

LINDA HOLMES: In the new horror film Him, a promising young football player has a chance to be trained by his idol for his big shot as a pro, but it's gonna happen at a creepy and secluded training facility. And as soon as the kid gets there, it becomes clear that although greatness may sound good, it might not be worth what's going to be asked of him. I'm Linda Holmes. Joining me today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is my cohost, Aisha Harris. Hello, Aisha.

AISHA HARRIS: Baa, Linda.

[LAUGHTER]

HOLMES: Also here is one of the hosts of NPR'S Code Switch podcast, Gene Demby. Gene, it is always so good to talk to you.

GENE DEMBY: Always, always. What's good with y'all? Oh, my god, I can't wait to talk to you about this.

HOLMES: I know, seriously. OK. So this is a lot of movie, let me just say that at the outset. If the plot details seem a little sketchy, it's because, at least, I was not always certain I knew what was going on. We persevere. In Him, Tyriq Withers plays Cam, a gifted young quarterback who's about to go to the pros-- to a fictional league, by the way. Obviously not to the NFL, for legal reasons, I assume. He's attacked by a stranger and suffers a brain injury that threatens his career. But he gets an offer from his idol, a legendary player named Isaiah, played by Marlon Wayans, to train him at a mysterious facility out in the desert so he can get a shot at greatness. When he gets there, things start out intense, but then they start to get really strange. Cam is concerned about Isaiah. He's concerned about Isaiah's wife, played by Julia Fox. And he's concerned about the weird training rituals, mysterious medical procedures he's undergoing. It might sound like you know where all this is going. I'm just gonna say you probably don't, at least not fully. But it is certainly a big swing. It's from director Justin Tipping. And it's produced by Jordan Peele, whose influence is, I think, pretty clear throughout, in a couple of places in particular. Him is in theaters now. Aisha, I'm gonna start with you. What-- what did you think?

[LAUGHTER]

HARRIS: Look, I had hopes for this movie. I wouldn't say they were high hopes, per se, but they were hopes. Marlon Wayans, I think, is a performer who is underrated in terms of his range. Yes, he can do the broadest of humor. He can do your Scary Movies, your White Chicks. But of course, as I think a lot of us have seen with something like Requiem for a Dream-- which I will admit, as with most people, that is a movie I will never go back and revisit-- but from my memory, he is very good in that. And so I was very excited to see him take on this, you know, very dark role. And I was curious about Tyriq Withers, because the only thing I knew him from before this was Atlanta, the infamous episode "Rich Wigga, Poor Wigga." But I was curious to see what else he would do. And look, they're both not too hard on the eyes. I'm just gonna say, it's nice to have them together. I don't know what this movie is. I think that it is a movie that is both very obvious but also very obtuse. And it has a lot of ideas. And I understand what the ideas, I think, are trying to do, but the execution is so muddled and so just, like, unwilling to commit to any certain thread that you might expect it to go down and just likes to collect a bunch of, like, random, weird, creepy images for the sake of having random, weird, creepy images that don't really add up to anything profound. So I gotta say, this is a tough one. There are good things that I will say about this, but for the most part, I-- [GRUNTS, LAUGHS] I don't know.

HOLMES: We're all a little bit reduced to making various noises. Gene, what noises have you got for me?

DEMBY: Uh, yeah. [LAUGHS] As soon as the screening ended, I wanted to text both of y'all like, WTF? Like, what did we just watch? Like, not on some, like, even disdain. Like, some actual, like, can you explain what we just watched? Like, I saw the movie-- my guest for the screener was my homegirl Marion, who is a big horror buff. I was like, yo, you should come see this with me. And she said-- and I think this is right-- she said it felt like a perfume ad. Like, you know, you like, see a unicorn walking across a golden lake, and then Natalie Portman says something about infinity or something like that. It's like--

HARRIS: Yes, yes, a perfume ad mixed with a Nike ad. Let's--

DEMBY: What are we looking at right now? It's just, like, a bunch of actually, like, very dope-looking, like, shots of things that don't make sense. Like, there's-- all this stuff in this movie is like, OK, so that's obviously a reference to the Last Supper. There's obviously, like, a lot of sort of, like, pagan imagery. There's like, pentagrams, but also like, you know, that, like, triangle with the eye in it. There's like a whole bunch of just, like--

HARRIS: The Illuminati, right? Isn't that the Illuminati?

DEMBY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the Illuminati, sort of-- I'm doing the Roc Nation sign. But, um--

HARRIS: (LAUGHING) Well.

DEMBY: [LAUGHS] But there's a lot of just, like, this hodgepodge of things that are meant to evoke other things but don't-- actually, like, in and of themselves don't mean anything in this movie. Just none of the stuff makes any sense. And I've been very curious about Tyriq Withers because I saw I Know What You Did Last Summer, the remake, and he's, like, one of the characters in that. And I was like, I think there might be something there, but I can't tell because this movie is so bad. And I'm in the same place having seen him, like, uh, maybe there's something here, but I can't tell because this movie is so bad.

HOLMES: Yeah. I want to start with a bunch of my good news about this movie, right?

DEMBY: OK.

HOLMES: First of all, I agree that Tyriq Withers is really interesting. I also agree with Aisha that Marlon Wayans is a really interesting actor because all the stuff you've already said, but also, he does, like, a rom-com thing with Sandra Bullock in The Heat, which is sort of cool.

HARRIS: Yes, yes. I totally forgot about that.

HOLMES: And like, it's like, oh, he could do this. Like, he could definitely do that, right? He's an interesting dude. I like that. I also think-- and I said this to Gene last night-- I think the idea of doing body horror around elite athletes is a great idea. That is a great idea. Body horror is absolutely part of elite sports. And that's not just true-- I mean, I think in football, it's well-known from grisly injuries in football. This movie basically starts with a grisly injury that recalls grisly injuries we've actually seen in football. Like, this kind of stuff really does happen. I think this is a great idea, and I think these guys are both compelling. But I think the perfume ad thing is very accurate. Aisha kind of put her finger on one of the things that bothered me, which is I think you see a lot of scenes that are kind of interesting scenes, but do they cohere into a movie? I don't think so. There's a lot of really interesting experimentation here with visual effects. And there's a device of kind of transforming a regular football play into body horror just by showing you, like, what's going on inside the body. I think that's a really, really cool idea. But somewhere along the line, this all just gets really kind of goofy. And there's a moment, like, about five minutes from the end, probably, I don't know, where you suddenly see, like, a new tableau. And I was like, what on earth? I feel like we have just entered a completely different movie. So it's a tricky one. I think it's bad, but I also think it's ambitious, and I'm glad that somebody like Jordan Peele can throw his weight behind kind of playing around with horror in this way.

HARRIS: I mean, here's the thing. Keen-eyed observers will know that, like, he did not direct this movie, but they have been pushing this movie like it is a Jordan Peele production. And so with that comes expectations of a sort, for better and for worse. And I think that you basically-- like, you can't clone Jordan Peele. That's not possible. He is his own entity, just like people try to do the Spielberg-- like, you can't do that. You can only hope to come close to that, in a way. And unfortunately, I don't think that this movie-- like, I kept waiting for the Marlon Wayans character, Isaiah-- he keeps talking about, like, oh yeah, no, I gotta go watch some tapes. I gotta go watch some tapes. Like, after the third time I was like, this is gonna amount to something. Like, what is this gonna mean? And then, womp, womp. Like, it's such a, like, nothing-burger at the end. And there's multiple threads like that where I kept thinking, this is an interesting idea. This is-- like, I completely agree with you, Linda. It's such a great idea on its surface, especially something like football, which is such a brutal sport. And then on top of that, there's, like, masculinity in capital letters because, you know, in the first scene, we see a young Cam watch Isaiah, on screen, get terribly injured during a game. And his father literally turns his head to make sure he's watching and looking because he's like, oh, I can't watch it. He's, like, a kid. And his father turns his head to make him watch. And he's like, that's what real men do. And it's like, OK, I get it. I understand what we're trying to do here. The reason I baa-ed at the beginning of this is because at one point, there's also, like, a whole thread about Isaiah having, like, a cult of fans. And like, there's a fan who comes out of the dark, and he's wearing, like, you know, the football paint that people wear at football games, and he baas. But, like, that never coalesces to anything. I just-- I wanted more-- just more complications with what they were throwing out there. And once, like, everything is revealed, it just felt so deflated, and I-- yeah, this is kind of disappointing.

DEMBY: Yeah, it feels like-- the movie is very creepy, right, at the beginning. Like, you see all these sort of, like, images, again, that sort of evoke sort of, like, discomfort or, like, unease. But there's no real, like, rising tension. Because like you said, like, it's not breadcrumbing to, like, the next thing. At some point, if you're watching a horror movie or thriller, like, someone has to be, like, in friction with the bad thing, you know what I mean? Like-- and nobody really is in this movie. Like, Cade is sort of like, OK, cool, for like-- mostly like, all right. Like, it's kind of weird, but they don't wear stuff here, but I guess it's OK. And then, you know, by the time you're supposed to have the big sort of, like, confrontation, it's like, well--

HOLMES: Right. I see this movie as very much an extension of the Get Out project in a bunch of ways, right? Which in some ways I think is really smart. You know, if Get Out is a movie about the exploitation of young, especially Black men's bodies in that way, this is also sort of about that. But also, I think if you think about Get Out, one of the things that made that movie, for me, so satisfying is how Chris is just-- he kind of knows something's wrong, and he's got that increasing sense like something's wrong.

DEMBY: That something's not right, yeah.

HOLMES: And you see him kind of trying to figure out how to navigate it. And you don't get that awareness from Cam in this movie, which is OK. Every movie doesn't have to be the same as every other movie. But it feels often like this one is going for a profundity that it does not really manage. Gene and I talked about a moment-- they're having, like, a deep conversation. And one character says to the other one, if you're starving to death in prison, and they offer you food or freedom, you don't really have a choice, do you? And he gets up and walks out. And it's like, really makes you think. But when you actually sit at that moment in the movie, it's like, what's he talking about? It's not clear whether he's saying you should obviously take the freedom or you should obviously take the food, nor is it clear what that has to do with the movie. And after I got home, I googled this. And apparently, it's, like, a meme where there's, like, a sort of a quasi-philosophical question of, if you offer a prisoner bread or a key, the prisoner may take the bread. Why would he do that? And then they get into a whole thing. But this doesn't appear to have any--

HARRIS: No!

HOLMES: It's not clear what this has to do with the movie. I mean, it's all about, like, instant gratification versus learned helplessness and all this other stuff. It's not clear what on earth this has to do with the movie, but they film it like it's a real dropped bomb.

DEMBY: Yeah, he dropped a bar. Like, he was like, oh, bars, bars.

HOLMES: They film it like, oh, damn. Like-- [LAUGHS]

HARRIS: That happens multiple times, because early on when Cam first gets to the house, Isaiah tells this story-- and I was like, is this because I don't know anything about football? Where he's like, do you know how the quarterback came to be? And then he tells a story about how it's, like, related to Indigenous players being smarter and more strategic than the sort of, like, oafish, brutish, like, white players they're against. But like, I didn't understand. At first I thought to myself, is this because I don't know, like-- I don't actually understand what a quarter-- like, I don't care about football. I really don't. So I was just thinking to myself, is this because I don't understand the game? But as I kept watching the movie and other things didn't make sense, I just figured, oh, I think this is just a feature of the film, is that nothing really coalesces, and things that are supposed to be profound aren't really actually profound. I've said a lot of stuff that I didn't like about this movie, but I will say there is one moment when Marlon Wayans fully locks in and he is giving Bishop in Juice, the Tupac character, the moment when you're like, oh, this dude is diabolical. And he's, like, wearing a robe, like, a hooded-- like, a very soft robe. It looked very comfortable, like a bathrobe.

HOLMES: It did look comfortable.

HARRIS: But he's also wielding a gun in a very Bishop from Juice way. And I thought to myself, this is what I wish the movie had more of. I want more of this Marlon Wayans, more of this kind of, like, I'm menacing, but also I'm very pragmatic about it. And I wanted more of that. And I just wonder what a different movie this could have been, if there could have been more of sort of, like, ramp-up to those moments and more of a building block. And unfortunately, that doesn't happen here, but it does have Julia Fox being her weird self, as usual.

DEMBY: Yeah, she is so weird in this movie, and I actually think it kind of works for the most part. Like, you know what I mean? Like, because-- like, she's so-- off-putting is not the word I want to use. But she's, like, very-- she works in a movie like this when, like, everything is sort of creepy for no reason. You're like, what is-- what is this woman talking about? Like, what is this person--

HARRIS: She's the main friction, I think. She's, like, the most interesting friction here.

DEMBY: Absolutely.

HOLMES: Yeah, she has a very alienating energy in this that I think works for the film. But I think, you know, as Aisha mentioned with that long story about Indigenous football players, I completely agree. I kept expecting that to pay off in some way. And like, is there a little callback to it? Yes, there's a little callback to it. But does that moment make it feel like, yes, this now all makes sense, because when you see it through the lens of that story-- no, not really. It just feels a little bit like-- I mean, it's a callback. It's a thing that's designed to make you say, oh, that's the thing that he said earlier, right? But that's sort of about it. This seems like a movie that had enormously big aspirations, which I respect and admire. And like I said, I think the idea of body horror about elite athletes is awesome. I would watch a whole movie about Tommy John surgery, you know? But I think this is just a-- this is just a real weird one for me. Well, tell us what you think about Him. I have a feeling a lot of people are gonna see it. We'll see if I'm right, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to go see it. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week.

HOLMES: Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week, what's making us happy this week. Gene Demby, what's making you happy this week?

DEMBY: So this movie made me want to go reread one of my favorite pieces of sports writing ever, by Spencer Hall. This essay he wrote was called "Buffalo." If you watch this movie, when Marlon Wayans is giving that speech about the quarterback, he's alluding to this, like, history of race in football, and this is actually what Spencer Hall is doing in this piece. He's actually writing a story about American martial culture and racism, and the culling of the American buffalo, and football, and how these things are all interlinked. And it's-- like, every couple of years I come back and reread it, and every couple of years, I'm like, this is-- one day I aspire to write something that is holding this many ideas as, like, astutely as this is. I've only found it on this place called Banner Society. I actually think it's, like, reposted it. It's by Spencer Hall. It came out in 2016. This is, like, nine years old at this point. But it is about sort of how American culture, and the specific sort of historical threads of ethnic cleansing and enslavement and class create this sport that, like-- football is so central to American culture in so many ways. And I think if you want to sort of, like, have a big think about the ideas that are in this movie by someone who is actually-- can actually do it, Spencer Hall's "Buffalo."

HOLMES: Ah, excellent. Thank you very much, Gene Demby. Aisha Harris, what is making you happy this week?

HARRIS: What is making me happy this week is also something that's made me a little depressed because of how relevant it is to our current times, but it is Pump Up the Volume, the 1990 cult film, Allan Moyle, which I just watched for the first time. This movie stars Christian Slater as a high school loner who anonymously moonlighting as a crude but empathetic pirate radio shock jock who is raging against the machine of corrupt school administrators. And he rustles up some good trouble, as John Lewis would say, getting the students more active and aware of the way the administration is failing them. Free speech, censorship, institutional corruption. It's all there. It all feels very, very prevalent. And I chose this as my happy before Jimmy Kimmel's show was pulled off the air by ABC indefinitely. It feels even more relevant now, sadly. What I liked about this movie is that first of all, Christian Slater is very, very good. He's very believable in this role, but also, like, it basically anticipates the 30-plus years since it came out. You know, as we've seen the growth of talk shows in the '90s and then podcasts more recently. Also has a frigging great soundtrack. The Pixies, pre-Law and Order SVU Ice-T, Leonard Cohen. Like, it's actually on the Criterion Channel as part of their current curation of '90s soundtracks movies.

HOLMES: Soundtracks movies, right.

HARRIS: Yes, I enjoyed it a lot. It also just feels so potent and relevant. So that is Pump Up the Volume. You can find it on Criterion Channel, but it's also available to rent on VOD.

HOLMES: Happy to be reminded of the Christian Slater of the '90s. Nothing against the Christian Slater of now, who's still a great actor, but the Christian Slater of the '90s was a special, special thing.

DEMBY: He was.

HARRIS: Yes.

HOLMES: So what is making me happy this week is also a little sad. Robert Redford died this week. He was 89 and had an amazing legacy, really, of trying to be particularly an environmental activist, an activist for the health of independent film, did a lot of work with Indigenous filmmakers, which I did not know about and read about this week. And by the way, a pretty good actor and director who was pretty successful as a movie star, I've heard.

HARRIS: Also heard he was hot, too.

[LAUGHTER]

HOLMES: Pretty hot.

DEMBY: Perhaps you heard.

HOLMES: I mean, listen, he was a man who had no choice but to be handsome and figured out ways, I think, to navigate that, sometimes quite interestingly. I wrote a little piece for NPR about three of his thrillers that I love. All the President's Men, people probably have seen. Sneakers is a 1992 really, really fun heist movie I recommend seeking out. Robert Redford and Sidney Poitier in a movie together. What a good idea. What a good idea. That movie is great. But the one I want to talk about a little bit is Three Days of the Condor, which is a 1975-- basically one of the primary paranoid thrillers of the '70s, directed by Sydney Pollack. And Redford plays this guy who works in kind of a covert CIA office that's disguised as something else. And he's just a researcher, basically, for the CIA. Goes out to lunch, comes back to the office, and everybody's been killed. And so now he's in one of these, what am I gonna do? Gets in touch with people back at the office and tries to get brought in safely, but then it becomes clear that the agency is compromised. And there is so much about this movie that I think works so well. I think he works really well in it. I think the tone of it works really well. If you want to see some extraordinarily good 1970s fashion for men, the coats. I am telling you, the coats in this movie are unbelievable. And as I said, this is only a little tiny part of his legacy. His directorial debut was Ordinary People, which he won the Oscar for Best Director for, and which is Best Picture and which is a really good movie. Really good movie. But I really have a soft spot for thrillers like Three Days of the Condor. Absolutely recommend seeking it out. All of this stuff is generally rentable and findable. Robert Redford, all-around, I think, good person for the movie industry. Did a lot of good work and will be missed. So that is what is making me melancholy but also happy and appreciative this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Gene Demby, Aisha Harris, this was a hoot. Thank you for being here.

HARRIS: Thank you, Linda.

DEMBY: Appreciate y'all. Thank you for doing this.

HOLMES: This episode is produced by Carly Rubin, Liz Metzger, and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes. We'll see you all next week. Hut, hut.

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