< Mickalene Thomas makes art that 'gives Black women their flowers'

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and today my guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. In Thomas' art, Black women are front and center. Her subjects are often at leisure, resting on couches and chairs, sometimes clothed, sometimes fully nude, accentuated by rhinestones and rich, colorful patterns. The scale of her paintings - often made of unconventional materials like glitter, sequence and yarn - makes them feel larger than life with the eyes of her subjects gazing directly at us.

Thomas' art made me think about the slew of recent articles in The New York Times, Associated Press, Teen Vogue and others that delve into the sentiment many Black women felt after the outcome of the presidential race. One headline read, "Disillusioned By The Election, Some Black Women Are Deciding To Rest."

Thomas' art showcases Black women not in servitude, as often depicted in fine art, but at leisure, claiming space. She often recasts scenes from the 19th century French paintings, centering Black sensuality and power. And she's also collaborated with singer Solange for an album cover, and she painted the first individual portrait of first lady Michelle Obama, which was displayed at the National Portrait Gallery. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is midway through an international tour, with stops in Los Angeles, Philadelphia and France. It features 50 paintings, collages and photography, spanning over two decades, inspired by the women in her life, including her mother, who died in 2012.

Mickalene Thomas, welcome to FRESH AIR. And I know you're battling a cold, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us with this raging cold.

MICKALENE THOMAS: Thank you so much for having me. (Laughter) Hopefully, I'm not too congested.

MOSLEY: I want to talk about this latest conversation that many Black women are having because as we know, Black women sit at this intersection of race and gender, which for better or worse actually means that our existence is political. And I'm just wondering, as an artist whose muses are Black women, how would you describe your art and the messages that it's conveying?

THOMAS: I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long in historical images, and that my art gives Black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role (laughter) and validating that. And so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes, but also disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is whole to what is beauty, right? And so for me, I just look around my community, within my world, and started with my mother.

MOSLEY: You grew up in Camden, New Jersey...

THOMAS: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...About 15 minutes from the Barnes in Philadelphia, where your latest exhibit is showing. And for those who don't know, that museum is really steeped in the classics. It prides itself in showing the world's finest artists. So Matisse and Picasso are shown there. Your art has been shown worldwide. But what does it mean for you to have your work shown at a place like the Barnes, just really not too far from where you grew up?

THOMAS: Yeah. I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was - to be quite honest, like, I was very anxious and nervous about it mainly because...

MOSLEY: Really?

THOMAS: Yeah, because most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins (laughter).

MOSLEY: They had never seen it prior to...

THOMAS: Yeah. Even my father showed up.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist. And we kind of go off and do things, and it's conceptual. And, you know, visually, you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother reposed in the nude. They're going to see me reposed and reclined in the nude. And they may go, why are you doing that (laughter)?

MOSLEY: That's so interesting.

THOMAS: Why are you showing all that?

MOSLEY: Right, right.

THOMAS: Why are you exposing yourself, you know (laughter)?

MOSLEY: Yeah. I think it's so interesting, you know, artists who create work and the world sees it.

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: I mean, the world sees your nude body...

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...And your mother in repose. But those who are the closest, you feel like there's the most anxiety around showing it to them. What has been their reaction?

THOMAS: Well, one of my cousins was like, why you got to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission (laughter) to photograph her exposed. And so I think, for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event, so it was a extravaganza. You know, it's, like, very, just, like, colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and the energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special because, I admit, I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

MOSLEY: How did it feel for you to have them receive it?

THOMAS: Freeing. It felt freeing, and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled "Dim All The Lights." She's wearing a red and black sweater, and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with the painting. But he stood there just - and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And then he turned around and said, that's her - I know that stand. I know that's her. That's what she does.

And that just made me feel so - and he had this glow and this light on his face. And I think, for him - you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was, like, this energy. And my mother's birthday, October 27. The opening was October 18. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And he - there was this moment that you had to witness, that you could see he was connecting to her.

MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. She has a new exhibition at the Barnes in Philadelphia that showcases 50 of her paintings, collages and photographs that she created over the last two decades. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RHYTHM FUTURE QUARTET'S "IBERIAN SUNRISE")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today I'm talking to multi disciplinary artist and filmmaker Mickalene Thomas. She has a new exhibition at the Barnes in Philadelphia called All About Love, a title that pays tribute to the feminist text by the late writer bell hooks. Thomas' exhibit features 50 of her works over the past two decades - paintings, collages, photographs and videos that explore the complexities of Black and female identity.

For a span of time, you actually had museums that were resistant...

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...To showing your work.

THOMAS: Yes.

MOSLEY: You - and you believe that it had to do not with the subject matter but how your subject matter was presented. Like...

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...How you were presenting the Black body. Can you say more about that?

THOMAS: Yeah. I think - still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude Black body. If it's not stereotypically presented in ways of - I think I present the nude Black body in a way of just, like, celebrating and honoring and putting forth, like, all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma...

MOSLEY: Trauma or, I think you've said, like, servitude...

THOMAS: Servitude. Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Or entertainment.

THOMAS: Yeah, or entertainment. Yeah. Yeah, and I think the gesturing of, like, us being performative for an audience is still the notions that they boxes in or compartmentalize some visual artists.

MOSLEY: I found this to be, like, an interesting idea when you brought this up because it was something that I hadn't thought about. When you said this, I thought, well, I've seen lots of art where there are Black bodies, nude Black bodies. But what's different about yours, once I reflected on what you're saying is that - so for instance, there's a painting of a Black woman who's nude, and she's leaning back in a chair. Like, people can interpret that as sexual, but it's not sexual.

THOMAS: No, it's not.

MOSLEY: But it's just a body leaning back on a chair. And it's also not performative in the entertainment sense either. It just is.

THOMAS: It just is, and it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing. And rooted and grounded in that space, I think, is somewhat threatening to people of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentime (ph) kind of felt with aggression or a threat. I've had people say, oh, your images of the women are very confronting. And I said, their gaze is very confronting that they've said.

MOSLEY: Because you're - right, because many of your subjects are looking right at...

THOMAS: At you. Yes.

MOSLEY: Like, straight out at you. Yeah.

THOMAS: They're looking straight out at - they're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. And that - but with all that, too, there's still - you know, the other side is vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as - that the women are confronting you.

But that's - I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of Black women when they're sort of seated in a position of all-knowingness. There's - you know, but we have been - we've sat on thrones before, and I think, you know, we've been queens and kings. And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

MOSLEY: Some of your works - they also, like, directly reference scenes from your own life but also classic compositions from the fine art canon.

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: So there's the - your interpretation of the 1862 French painting "Luncheon In The Grass" (ph).

THOMAS: Grass. Yes.

MOSLEY: Yeah. You take those paintings and then turn them into Black representations. Do you remember how that idea in particular to take on "Luncheon In The Grass" came about?

THOMAS: Yeah, I do. It was an idea I had. I was already working with the images. I've seen, like, Renee Cox - there's been a lot of artists who worked with luncheon and grass as a concept of shifting sort of the paradigm of sort of the Black bodies and sort of these Western canon ideas of histories. And I wanted to lie myself and sort of - it was through, actually, Romare Bearden that I started thinking about "Luncheon In The Grass" and thinking about what it would mean to have three Black women seated in this position. And it came from a commission that was presented to me by Klaus Biesenbach. At the time, he was the curator of photography and media at MoMA and also the director of MoMA PS 1. And so he commissioned me to present a body of work in the window of the modern.

And I immediately knew when I saw the space that I wanted to do "Le Dejeuner," one, because of the opportunity of the space that it was going to be located; two, because I had the opportunity for the first time to shoot site specifically at the MoMA in the sculpture garden with the Matisse in the background. And three, I knew that many people would see this.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: And then it was going to be my largest painting to that date. At that - at that point, I was only working, like, 40 - like, four by five or four feet by feet feet or, like, no larger than six feet.

MOSLEY: And how large was this?

THOMAS: This was 10 by 20 feet.

MOSLEY: For those who don't know "Luncheon In The Grass," can you explain what that painting is and who the original subjects of the painting were?

THOMAS: Oh, "Luncheon On The Grass"...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: ..."Le Dejeuner sur l'herbe" by Manet. And it was a very provocative painting - large oil painting of three figures, but it's actually four figures. Oftentimes they always speak about "Luncheon On The Grass" with three figures, but there's a fourth figure because there's one person that's bathing in the back. And I think there's one figure that depicts a female nude and then the kind of half-dressed female bather in the back that's often removed when it's remade. Three main figures on a picnic - and it's a woman seated with two dressed men, fully dressed men, I guess. That really is - was, at the time, very controversial because to have a painting that sort of depicts this nude woman just at leisure at a picnic...

MOSLEY: Right, right. Yes.

THOMAS: ...With two dressed men is, like...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...What is going on here?

MOSLEY: And then to recreate it...

THOMAS: But it also - but...

MOSLEY: ...Where there's three Black women - yes.

THOMAS: Yeah. But to recreate it with three Black women, who are fully dressed...

MOSLEY: Yes.

THOMAS: But this particular painting made Edourd Manet very famous because it was very controversy, and it's an incredible work that is in France. And it's still there. I think it's at the Musee d'Orsay. I decided to reinterpret or reclaim the space with empowering the one woman - or the half-dressed woman, the bather - and the one woman undressed as three powerful women who are fully clothed, seated and not at a picnic, just lounging and giving each other their flowers.

And I thought that was very important for me as you see them - see her handing flowers as a way as, like, for me, as Black women, seeing each other as a sisterhood of community. I think that's mostly what I wanted to convey - sort of this bond, this sisterhood, this love between Black women that I grew up experiencing.

MOSLEY: What was the reaction from folks...

THOMAS: Oh, my gosh. I think if we - I think if Instagram was around then, I probably would've had a million followers (laughter).

MOSLEY: Yeah, because this was...

THOMAS: I mean...

MOSLEY: ...What year? Yeah.

THOMAS: It was in 2010.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.

THOMAS: It was 2010. And it stayed at The Modern Window for about two years. And I think The Modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum, which was amazing because...

MOSLEY: Also - well, right. It was also...

THOMAS: ...It was on 53rd Street, you know?

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: You walked by. You look, like, what is this? And I think people expected to see more inside but...

MOSLEY: But they weren't getting more of that. But it just...

THOMAS: Yeah, they weren't.

MOSLEY: It just speaks to what you had been told, though, about the desire to see Black art.

THOMAS: Yeah. I think, you know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces, and you just - you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art or - then you start to see elements of yourself.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: And this is just with their permanent collections. Now they're starting to realize that there'd been gaps in their collecting histories.

MOSLEY: Right. That's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role. And, like, it's a historical imprint.

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: It actually helps us to understand.

THOMAS: It is. I mean, for me, I have to say that art - I would - I often think that art has saved my life for sure. You know, growing up, going to after-school programs at the Newark museum, like, it was, like, for me, this safe haven, this comfort, this refuge. I love going there after school. I love doing all the craft projects, the paper mache and, you know, exploring different ways of making self-portraits or building houses with popsicle sticks and all of those...

MOSLEY: Yes, yes.

THOMAS: ...Things that you were doing or, like, you know, the taller paper tubes and, you know, making constructions. You know, that...

MOSLEY: It was an outlet, but it wasn't...

THOMAS: It was a outlet.

MOSLEY: But it wasn't, like, a career...

THOMAS: No.

MOSLEY: ...Path for you back then.

THOMAS: No.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: Not at that time. For me, it was just an outlet - a way of expressing myself but also a place to go after school until my mother got off of work.

MOSLEY: Our guest today is multi disciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF CHARLES MINGUS' "SUE'S CHANGES")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. She has a new exhibition at the Barnes in Philadelphia called All About Love, a collection of 50 paintings, collages and photographs that Thomas has created over the last two decades. Born and raised in Camden, New Jersey, Thomas studied at the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn and the Yale School of Art.

Her art centers on the women in her life - family, friends and lovers - portraying her subjects as confident and assured against richly textured backdrops. Thomas is a Tony Award-nominated coproducer, curator and educator. In 2014, she produced an HBO documentary short about her mother, Sandra Bush, often called Mama Bush. She also collaborated with Solange for an album cover and painted the first individual portrait of the first lady Michelle Obama, displayed at the National Portrait Gallery.

Your work is so layered. You use the collage, as we talked about, but sequins and rhinestones. And at first, you were using those materials because you didn't have the money for paint.

THOMAS: Yeah, yeah.

MOSLEY: But you've continued to use them.

THOMAS: Yeah. So when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint. I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me.

But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I - also to note, that during that time, it was the Sensation show at Brooklyn Museum. So you had all of these great Britain artists that was showing at the Sensation show. And they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili and elephant dung. And, you know, you had Tracey Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material.

MOSLEY: (Laughter) Right. Yeah.

THOMAS: And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really were paramount. But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint, or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

MOSLEY: And what would you do to get those?

THOMAS: I would borrow or, you know, some of my peers, they were good. They were like, oh, yeah, use some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working, and they saw that I was definitely in my studio all the time. And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good. And you just cut it open, and it's still paint in there (laughter).

MOSLEY: Yeah. Right, right. There's still so much paint when you open that up inside, yeah (laughter).

THOMAS: Yeah, it's kind of like your, you know, toothpaste, you know? So I would, you know, take an X-Acto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up, and kind of, like, with some of the interpretive medium - just use some of what I had.

MOSLEY: I want to talk about your entry for a moment into art because growing up, although you did art as a hobby, you didn't know that you actually wanted to be an artist. But some very pivotal things happened to you early in life, when you were around 17 or so. How did you find your way into the art world?

THOMAS: Well, when I was very young, about 16, going on to 17, I was going through my own transformation of my identity sexually. My mother was struggling with her addiction. I was living with my grandmother, my father's mother, who I was very close with up until she passed. And I fell in love. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon, with my girlfriend at the time and ended up going to a high school in Portland. And after living there with her probably about three years, we separated. She moves back with her family - I decided that I wanted to stay. My mother came to visit me to confirm that I wanted to stay, and I said yeah. I was living in Portland, decided to go to Portland State for a couple of years, and that's when I found interest in pre-law and theater arts.

MOSLEY: That just says so much about you. Seventeen years old, not even done with high school - you're going to move across the country to Portland, Oregon, from New Jersey.

THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah.

MOSLEY: Very different place. But during that time period, you discovered artist and photographer Carrie Mae Weems.

THOMAS: Yes.

MOSLEY: Can you take us there, to when you first encountered her work and what it was about her work that really ignited you as this pre-law theater student?

THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. While I was living in Portland, after realizing that I couldn't really afford college and that I needed to work, I started working at Davis Wright Tremaine Law Firm - started as a file clerk and document clerk. And a good friend of mine who was a photographer, Christopher Stark, had just returned from his internship with Nan Goldin. And while he was in New York, he learned about all of these photographers. Carrie Mae Weems was one of the photographers he learned about. So when he came back to Portland, ironically, Carrie Mae Weems had a show up at Portland Art Museum. And he said, you must see this photographer's work - I know you're going to connect with it. And so I went with him to see Carrie Mae Weems' show at the Portland Art Museum.

MOSLEY: And describe for people who don't know Carrie Mae Weems what her art articulates. Like, it really does showcase, like, everyday life.

THOMAS: Her art is a series of photographs that really - depicting sort of the Black woman. She's known for her earlier works of the Kitchen Table Series. And that's the work that I first saw at the Portland Art Museum, was her series of photographs, which reminded me of my own family and myself. I just remember standing in front of those photographs and seeing myself. And I never felt that way before in front of art. And that was because I saw myself in the image. I saw myself as that little girl sitting at the table. I saw the woman as my mother. I saw the male as whatever male figure that was in my life at that time, you know?

And it was, like, depicting family, love, domesticity. It was just an expression of the Black experience that was complex and dimensional, that allowed me to understand that there was a power with the image with Black people in it. I kept going back to the exhibit after I went with my friend.

MOSLEY: Really? How many times did you go? Do you remember?

THOMAS: Probably about four or five times...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...Until...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...It closed. And then I also bought a stack of the postcards of the table series and the "Mirror, Mirror" and went to the art store to grab some supplies of Rives BFK paper and some oil pastels and used Carrie Mae Weems' postcard photographic images as references and for, like, some of my drawings, just...

MOSLEY: Oh, wow.

THOMAS: ...Like, looking at them.

MOSLEY: Was that the first time when you started to consider that art could be a profession?

THOMAS: Yeah. And then I was surrounded by artists in Portland who was embarking on that as a profession.

MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. She has a new art exhibit at the Barnes in Philadelphia that showcases 50 paintings, collages and photography that Thomas has created over the last two decades. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE WEE TRIO'S "LOLA")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today I'm talking to multidisciplinary artist and filmmaker Mickalene Thomas. She has a new exhibit at the Barnes in Philadelphia called All About Love, the feminist text by the late writer bell hooks. Thomas' exhibit, also shown at the Broad in Los Angeles and the Hayward Gallery in London this coming winter, features 50 of Thomas' works over the past two decades.

Before your mother died, you had a chance to ask her a series of questions about your life growing up.

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You've alluded to her drug use. You also found out, though that she sold drugs.

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And that was part of what afforded the life that you all had. It was modest, but you also always had nice things. And...

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: What was the story that you grew up with and then the one that you came to understand is true?

THOMAS: I'm glad you asked this question because it wasn't like there was a story that I grew up with. It was a reality that I grew up with. You know, my brother and I lived in Hillside in a house. We had our own room, and it was decorated the way any kid would want their room. You know, we had, like, the latest things all the time. My mother drove a Cadillac Seville, which was, like, at that time, like...

MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.

THOMAS: ...An expensive car. And my mother was taking care of the family in South Jersey, whether it was helping family members out with rent or medical bills or whatever was needed. That's what my mother was doing. At that point, she was involved and engaged to a drug dealer. And then he eventually got caught. And so, I guess, at some point, my mother felt the responsibility to maintain things, and so she was selling the drugs with some other people in her life, friends.

MOSLEY: What did it mean for you to know and understand...

THOMAS: So I didn't know any of this...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...Until about 12 years ago.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: So a late adult. And because my mother kept - she kept a lot from me and my brother. She even kept the abuse that my father did in their relationship away from me and my brother. She never talked about that. And so...

MOSLEY: What did it mean for you to find out all of this?

THOMAS: It was devastating at first because I felt like there was a part of my life that was a lie. I didn't understand it. I had to go back in my own mind to try to figure out. But it made me understand why I was very shy to share things.

MOSLEY: I wanted to ask you - as part of your art practice, you posed your mom as Pam Grier.

THOMAS: Yes.

MOSLEY: And...

THOMAS: That was my a set of photographs that I did within my class with David Hilliard at Yale.

MOSLEY: What did Pam Grier represent?

THOMAS: Oh, sexiness, strong, unapologetic, beauty, vigilante, savior, goddess.

MOSLEY: I thought that was so - like, just even reading about it, I just - in the context of your mother's story was really powerful because your mom - she was all of those things to you.

THOMAS: Yeah.

MOSLEY: She was also an aspiring model. But she modeled for a while, but she never quite got the success or fame that she wanted.

THOMAS: No.

MOSLEY: She never really felt understood.

THOMAS: No, she didn't. And I think of my mother - although she was very strong, I think, unfortunately - which I think happens to a lot of women who are abused - they're robbed. And things are stolen from them. And that's a level of confidence. So it was always manifesting in her life in different ways. And so I don't think she knew how to get over that. And so that opportunity for her to be a successful model - when that was also an opportunity that she lost, I think that was something that settled in her that destroyed her a little. And I think that's part of my understanding, as an adult, what might have led her to do some of the drugs she did, the addiction.

MOSLEY: Is it true that you're near the age that your mother was when you started photographing her?

THOMAS: Yes, I am. And I feel like she's definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like, the other day, it was like I sat down in a certain way, and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like, I felt her.

MOSLEY: Do you see her in the mirror when you look at yourself?

THOMAS: Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before I grew up, as a kid, not looking like her and always covet the fact that - I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her, and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which really kind of, like...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...Messed me up as a child (laughter).

MOSLEY: Yeah.

THOMAS: But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

MOSLEY: Your mom got to see a lot of your art before she passed.

THOMAS: Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it, celebrate it. She was celebrated for it. She loved the fact that she was a part of my art. She loved coming to the openings. She loved coming to my friend's openings. She never - when I decided I wanted to be an artist, she never looked at it as, like, now, why do you want to go and do that? Some of those things were in my head, but she never vocalized that. She was a supporter of dance and music and all things - theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

MOSLEY: Mickalene Thomas, thank you so much for this conversation.

THOMAS: Thank you.

MOSLEY: Mickalene Thomas is a multidisciplinary visual artist. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is on view at the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia. Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new documentary "Beatles '64." This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE BEATLES SONG, "WITHIN YOU WITHOUT YOU")

Copyright © 2024 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. Transcript text may be revised to correct errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.