Wikipedia:Featured article review
Reviewing featured articles This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles (FAs) that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted. There are three requisite stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute. 1. Raise issues at the article's talk page
2. Featured article review (FAR)
3. Featured article removal candidate (FARC)
The FAR and FARC stages typically last two to three weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. Nominations are moved from the review period to the removal list, unless it is very clear that editors feel the article is within criteria. Given that extensions are always granted on request, as long as the article is receiving attention, editors should not be alarmed by an article moving from review to the removal candidates' list. To contact the FAR coordinators, please leave a message on the FAR talk page, or use the {{@FAR}} notification template elsewhere. Urgent reviews are listed here. Older reviews are stored in the archive. Table of Contents – This page: , Checklinks, Check redirects, Dablinks |
Featured article candidates (FAC): Featured article review (FAR): Today's featured article (TFA):
Featured article tools: |
Nominating an article for FAR The number of FARs that can be placed on the page is limited as follows:
Nominators are strongly encouraged to assist in the process of improvement; they should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days) and should avoid segmenting review pages. Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content.
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Featured article reviews
[edit]- Notified: Hurricanehink, WikiProject Weather
As noted in December 2021 by Hurricane Noah, this 2008 FA does not use a significant amount of coverage in scholarly literature. This is especially a problem in an article overwhelmingly reliant on articles from one agency. Noah also noted several instances of inconsistent reference formatting. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:08, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: WP:VG, User:Masem, User:AI83tito
Pre-FAR comments here and here. The article definitely needs a rewrite given the 10+ years since its promotion and the legacy of the game in the landscape. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 22:08, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm going to try to save this article, just gonna poke around, do some cleanup, and maybe I'll give it a serious go. Side note, I could have sworn the video game project advised only including 10 reviews in the review table. Not a rule per say but just advice for editors. As it stands there are 12 reviews in the table (although the TouchArcade review should really go in it's own section regarding the iOS release). Famous Hobo (talk) 05:29, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Fish and karate, TheLastBrunnenG, Maralia, WP Bio, WP MILHIST, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Piracy, noticed 2025-04-17
As I noted on the article's talk page, I do not believe that a lot of the sourcing in this early (2007) FA promotion meets the current standards. Hog Farm Talk 01:50, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
- Having made Stede Bonnet a little healthier a while back, I'd like to have a swing here as well, but I do note that the sourcing here appears to be far worse. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 02:50, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
- Just cleaned up some of the Further Reading entries. As far as the References, many of them are appropriate and reliable, generally historically accurate. But there are plenty that need to be sourced elsewhere, mainly the older websites: Chronofus, PortCities, ThePirateKing, PiratesInfo, etc. Some of the references to Ellms, Pyle, etc. also need to go, as they're just repeating text from Johnson's General History of the Pirates, which is itself historically important but not entirely reliable. TheLastBrunnenG (talk) 01:50, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Myosotis Scorpioides, WikiProject UK geography, WikiProject Cities, WikiProject England, WikiProject Lincolnshire
As noted in March 2025 by RetiredDuke, this 2008 FA is far below current standards. Much of it is out of date, relying on sources from 2009 or earlier: of particular interest is the Demography section, which is entirely sourced to the 2001 census (there have been two more since).
The "Governance" section is disorganised, there is uncited material throughout the article, and some sourcing is very poor. A particular highlight is the sentence "Editors of the website RoadGhosts.com claim this is one of the most haunted roads in Britain."
I hope someone is interested enough to work on this. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Giano, WikiProject Architecture, WikiProject Museums, WikiProject Buckinghamshire, WikiProject Historic sites
I am nominating this featured article for review because of concerns brought up on the article's talk page in January 2023, which I feel haven't been addressed. These include (copied from the talk page):
- The article extensively uses a source called "Dashwood" who is a relative and not wp:independent of the subject
- The History is split into three different parts, some in the Ethos section, then the Dashwoods section, then post 1943. This is highly confusing.
- The history isn't adequately summarising the article, too much info is lacking about National Trust, the Dashwoods and there is nothing about the slave trade
- There is an unencyclopedic tone in the Dashwoods of Wycombe section
- Dozens of high profile films have been shot at the house, the article doesn't mention any of them, instead it gives a link List of films shot at West Wycombe Park: these need discussing
- There are nine historic garden structures at the house that have been left out of the article and instead put in a list at List of garden structures at West Wycombe Park - these need including.
- Small article size ~ 35kb for a house with a lot of history.
In addition, I am concerned with too much detail in the "Dashwoods of West Wycombe" section, and just a general disorganization of the history of the house, with information scattered in many different sections and not presented chronologically. Z1720 (talk) 02:14, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Charles Edward, J JMesserly, Scott Mingus, WP MILHIST, WP USA, noticed in October 2022
In 2022 I raised concerns on the article's talk page regarding pagination errors and content not supported by the cited sources. I had been intending to work on this, but haven't. I own Conway and Horwitz, two of the heaviest used sources, but I don't know that either of these meets the high-quality standard in the current FA criteria. I have read Conway all the way through, and Horwitz is clearly a labor of love, but Farmcourt's website lists only things Horwitz has been involved in. It appears to be a personal press of Horwitz's, including publishing a book by him on self-publishing. I can find less online about FBH publishers, the publisher for the Conway book, but Open Library lists 7 books published by FBH of which 6 are by Conway and the seventh is a fictional work. If Conway and Horwitz do not meet the higher standard of reliability required by the FA standards, then I don't know that a featured article can really be written on this topic - a state that I have run into with some other Civil War articles I have worked on myself. Hog Farm Talk 17:31, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! I would love to work on this with you but am so busy in RL. I am not aware of any other significant sources you could use on this subject besides the ones you have mentioned. This battle is generally just a footnote in most other big Civil War books, often getting no more than a paragraph of attention. Horwitz's book was a Pulitzer prize nominee. It appears to me to have all the hallmarks of a reliable source. At any rate, if it is not, then there is no other solid source on which you could rebuild the article that I am aware of. I have fairly exhaustively researched this subject in the past, if there was another source, I would probably have already found it. (Conway and Funk are the two other significant sources I used for the article way back in the day when I first wrote it, but they are of lower quality and reliability than Horwitz.) Cheers! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- I saw that nomination for Horwitz, but I believe anyone can nominate a book for the Pulitzer Prize with the payment of the nomination fee (although I can't get the nomination process page on the Pulitzer website to load; my wife used all of the high-speed internet available for the month already somehow) - would it be okay if I posted at WT:FAC to get some more FA-familiar opinions on this source? I should be less busy than I usually am for most of May although that could change suddenly and I can help with the source verification if Horwitz is deemed OK. Hog Farm Talk 18:43, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- I've left a neutrally-worded message at WT:FAC. I just finished a rewrite of Battle of Wilson's Creek and if Conway & Horwitz are OK'd I'll work on this next instead of Battle of Jackson. Hog Farm Talk 01:53, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- To answer this, we should turn to the available reliable sources. :-p Do we have any information from other historians on the quality of Horwitz's work? E.g. any professional book reviews? If they meet WP:SPS because subject-matter experts say that the book is of high quality, I'd think it would also meet the FA criteria.
- I found one review that scores out about average for what I've seen of historical works: this JSTOR result is positive overall,and I was amused to see a critique that Horwitz could be too detailed (something that is great for Wikipedia!). On the other hand, they were very critical of Horwitz's treatment of oral histories. ("Professional historians and even adept amateurs may find this a troubling aspect of Horwitz's work since these events are presented as fact without enough close scrutiny and careful assessment.") In addition, footnote 2 in this piece calls the book "outstanding" but provides no other details. More might be out there—this was a quick search.
- Hog Farm is right on the Pulitzer nominations. If it had been a finalist, that would be different. Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:26, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll take a look at this - Charles Edward - do you remember if "Howtzer" is suppose to be a reference to Horwitz? Hog Farm Talk 01:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- I do not have any way of accessing a copy of Funk - are there any objections to that getting phased out? It also seems to be a lower-quality work than Horwitz. Mackey's The Uncivil War which I have a copy of has an overview of this raid. I believe the Matthews biography of Basil Duke is available through the Wikipedia library. I own a copy of Horan's 1950s biography of Thomas Hines but I have not read it and cannot vouch for its quality; the text on the dust jacket seems to overstate the strength of the Copperheads which is not a great sign. Hog Farm Talk 01:54, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll take a look at this - Charles Edward - do you remember if "Howtzer" is suppose to be a reference to Horwitz? Hog Farm Talk 01:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- I've left a neutrally-worded message at WT:FAC. I just finished a rewrite of Battle of Wilson's Creek and if Conway & Horwitz are OK'd I'll work on this next instead of Battle of Jackson. Hog Farm Talk 01:53, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- I saw that nomination for Horwitz, but I believe anyone can nominate a book for the Pulitzer Prize with the payment of the nomination fee (although I can't get the nomination process page on the Pulitzer website to load; my wife used all of the high-speed internet available for the month already somehow) - would it be okay if I posted at WT:FAC to get some more FA-familiar opinions on this source? I should be less busy than I usually am for most of May although that could change suddenly and I can help with the source verification if Horwitz is deemed OK. Hog Farm Talk 18:43, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
Okay - so I'm running into issues in the very first paragraph of the body. The sentence beginning "After patrolling the border ..." checks out to the source (Conway p. 42) but "Following the 1862 Newburgh Raid into Indiana, the federal government had put a regiment of regular cavalry troops in south central Indiana for defensive purposes." is mostly not. Conway does directly mention the Newburgh Raid in the immediate vicinity of that page and his index mentions neither Newburgh nor Stovepipe Johnson. Conway says these troops were moved into the area in December 1862 (five months after Newburgh) and that they were ordered there by Governor Morton of Indiana, not the federal government. I'm dropping mention of Newburgh for now and rewriting the rest of that unless someone can turn up a source connecting these two events. Hog Farm Talk 02:07, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- " Hines had led a reconnaissance mission into Indiana in search of Confederate sympathizers to support Morgan's coming raid. He did not find the support he was looking for, and had been pursued by elements of the 6th and 8th Regiment of the Indiana Legion who killed three of his men and captured several others before the remainder escaped back into Kentucky. Since then he had been waiting in the Brandenburg area for Morgan to arrive." - this is cited to Conway pp. 23-26. Hines hanging out in Brandenburg is first directly mentioned by name on Conway p. 43 so far as I can tell. The 6th Regiment of the Indiana Legion is mentioned on p. 21; the 8th Regiment is not mentioned at all. Conway p. 26 mentions 10 Confederates killed and 49 captured when Hines got stuck on an island trying to cross the river. Horwitz p. 44 mentions three killed; Horwitz p. 43 mentions that Hines had about 80 men while pp. 44-45 indicates that only Hines and 12 others escaped; the sum total of this suggests that "several others" understands the Confederate loss in prisoners. Those pages of Horwitz do not mention the 8th Regiment of the Indiana Legion. Going through this is very difficult as the content appears to be cited to the wrong pages and at times the wrong books. Hog Farm Talk 02:33, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- And Horwitz is directly copying from Horan - Horan p. 27 But before the tug had pulled away, Union infantrymen on the decks had killed three of Hines' troopers. One, directly in front of him, sank without a sound. [paragraph break] When they reached the Kentucky shore they turned and waved to their comrades, then vanished in the woods. The Confederates on the island raised a cheer, broke their rifles and marched down to the beach under a white flag to surrender. Versus Horwitz p. 44 But before the tug had pulled away, Union infantryment on the decks had killed three of Hines' troopers. One, directly in front of him, rank without a sound. When they reached the Kentucky shore, they turned and waved to their comrades, then vanished in the woods. The Confederates on the island raised a cheer, broke their rifles and marched down to the beach under a white flag to surrender. While Horwitz is citing Conway, this is the sort of thing Stephen Ambrose got in trouble for. This is part of the most blatant patch - the rest of that page which is citing Horan includes some passages where Horwitz paraphrased things down into shorter passages in his own words, but with copied sentences interspersed throughout. While I'm sure this was well-meaning by Horwitz, I am uncomfortable with this going forward. Hog Farm Talk 02:54, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Horwitz seems like a great guy and this book is clearly a huge labor of love (the printing, binding and paper quality in my copy is excellent and better than that for a lot of recent academic works) with an interesting premise in the time-line approach to the raid so bringing up the above really pains me. But I know my college professors (20 years after that book was published so maybe different writing norms) would have failed me for copying in that manner. I just don't have the heart for this. Hog Farm Talk 04:02, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- And Horwitz is directly copying from Horan - Horan p. 27 But before the tug had pulled away, Union infantrymen on the decks had killed three of Hines' troopers. One, directly in front of him, sank without a sound. [paragraph break] When they reached the Kentucky shore they turned and waved to their comrades, then vanished in the woods. The Confederates on the island raised a cheer, broke their rifles and marched down to the beach under a white flag to surrender. Versus Horwitz p. 44 But before the tug had pulled away, Union infantryment on the decks had killed three of Hines' troopers. One, directly in front of him, rank without a sound. When they reached the Kentucky shore, they turned and waved to their comrades, then vanished in the woods. The Confederates on the island raised a cheer, broke their rifles and marched down to the beach under a white flag to surrender. While Horwitz is citing Conway, this is the sort of thing Stephen Ambrose got in trouble for. This is part of the most blatant patch - the rest of that page which is citing Horan includes some passages where Horwitz paraphrased things down into shorter passages in his own words, but with copied sentences interspersed throughout. While I'm sure this was well-meaning by Horwitz, I am uncomfortable with this going forward. Hog Farm Talk 02:54, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: PericlesofAthens, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, WikiProject Royalty and Nobility, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Ancient Near East, WikiProject Politics, WikiProject Religion, WikiProject Rome, Vital articles/Level/3
As noted in August 2023 by UndercoverClassicist, this 2007 FA contains significant sourcing issues:
- Heavy overuse of one source (Eck & Takács 2003)
- Use of dated secondary sources, some of which are nearing a century old
- Uncritical use of ancient primary sources as citations.
- Underuse of high-quality modern sources, some of which lie unused in the "Further reading" section
- Not enough detail on legacy and assessment in post-classical politics.
These problems call into question the article's adherence to FA criteria 1b), 1c), and 1d). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:39, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging Ifly6, who was in that conversation (and will probably have a valuable view on the sourcing), but I'm probably not going to have the time to take them up on their offer a proper collaboration at the moment, if indeed it still stands. Scanning back over the article quickly, I think what I wrote in 2023 is still true. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:45, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- Also pinging @Carlstak and T8612:, who were in the discussion as well. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:46, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Hello! As the editor who initially wrote and submitted this article as a FAC back in 2007, it behooves me 18 years later to now safeguard my little legacy here at Wikipedia. This review comes as no surprise, of course, considering how the article was never that stellar to begin with and further edits over time have diminished its quality even further (for the record I was not the one to add the smattering of primary sources cited in the article). I wrote this article when I was a 21-year-old in college with nothing better to do. I am now a middle aged man with a demanding full time job and an absurd amount of social commitments this spring. Please allow me a proper amount of time to address all of these concerns (at least a couple months). I have begun an earnest effort to address them by using up my break time at work (when I could be exercising instead, LOL) to cite Roller (2010) as a buttressing source for Eck & Takacs (2003). The latter is admittedly overused, but I don't see a need to remove any citations from that source if we can simply buttress it instead with multiple layers of verification via other cited secondary sources. Roller is certainly useful as an academic source for the bits about Cleopatra and Antony; I plan on adding other sources in the coming weeks. Unfortunately I do not have time tonight or even tomorrow night to continue work on this given my social commitments, but hopefully I can continue working on this by Thursday night and maybe, if I'm very lucky to have any free time and not utterly exhausted, on Sunday afternoon as well. I simply do not have ample time to do all of the work that is truly needed. I'm going to have to call on you and others to please aid me in my efforts to research secondary sources and add citations where they are most needed. Also, @AirshipJungleman29, if you could clarify exactly what you mean by "not enough detail on legacy and assessment in post-classical politics," I could begin to address that, but I'm not sure which details are missing in your estimation. Kind regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 15:05, 22 April 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting here that I will be busy all day today, but will make a concerted effort tomorrow (Sunday, April 26th) to read through Bringmann (2007), which I own, and continue citing that source in the article. I will also continue consulting Roller (2010) and adding citations from that source. If anyone has suggestions for easily accessible sources found online (via Google Books, for instance), that would be highly appreciated. I don't have a lot of time to drive down to the nearest university library and spend a day there finding suitable sources, reading them, taking notes, and then citing them here in the article. I'd rather avoid all of that just to salvage my old Featured article, but I will do what is necessary. Pericles of AthensTalk 18:03, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
- UPDATE: I've made some small but noteworthy improvements already by using Bringmann (2007), but it's a real headache to clean up the sloppiness of other editors, especially in the "Name" section of the article that was created after my successful Featured Article candidacy of 2007. Too many cooks spoil the broth, so to speak! For instance, someone cited Goldsworthy (2014) without bothering to let us know which page number they consulted, and this particular citation was used to buttress a primary source citation for Suetonius. Ugh! There are a lot of weeds to untangle here, but I hope everyone will please be patient as I try to use what little spare time I have in the coming two months to address these problems. I have asked another Wiki editor who I've collaborated with in the past for help on this, but unfortunately this is out of their depth. @UndercoverClassicist Do you happen to have direct access to high quality recently published reliable sources on Augustus? I have a few books about ancient Rome lying around at home (like the aforementioned one by Bringmann), but I cannot use them for verifying everything. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I could use a helping hand right about now, because this whole thing is starting to give me a migraine, I'm sleep deprived as it is, and it's really starting to stress me out. I'm not looking forward to seeing one of my FAs lose its status only because I no longer have the adequate spare time in my busy life to work on articles here. Thanks for any help in advance and any life preservers thrown my way! Also pinging User:Johnbod for help on this, out of sheer desperation (sorry to drag you into this mess, old friend, not sure who else to contact at this point since I rarely frequent Wikipedia anymore). Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 03:18, 28 April 2025 (UTC)
- Got to make this one brief, I'm afraid:
- As a first step, I'd look to promote Zanker and the two Galinsky books from the Further Reading.
- The Cambridge Companion gets a couple of cites: have we used that fully?
- Wallace-Hadrill's Augustan Rome isn't that recent, but has a recent-ish 2nd edition (2018).
- This one from 2010 is brief, but I suspect will have good bibliography.
- This one (Hekster) is specifically about image, but I had it presented to me at a recent-ish conference as the "next word" from Galinsky, Zanker et al.
- I might be able to track down stuff that isn't available on IA and TWL if it would help. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:51, 28 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for highlighting these as important sources, but do you have access to these books? I have access like anyone else to resources made available on Google Books, but I'm not buying things on Amazon simply to improve a Wikipedia article (I'll see if Google Books contains snippets of these, but I'll need full access on a database like Internet Archive if I'm not driving down to my local university library). I don't work in academia, so I no longer have access to databases like JSTOR. I was at least able to use Fratantuono (2016) to untangle weeds and clean up the mess made by other editors in the "Names" section, deemphasizing Suetonius given @AirshipJungleman29's concerns about primary sources being used uncritically (though I don't mind retaining them in certain spots simply to buttress secondary sources and as a useful reference for readers). This article is going to take so much work, but unfortunately my workday has already begun, and I barely have a single free evening this entire week to sit down and give this article the attention it deserves. If you do not have the adequate spare time in your own busy life to help with edits to this article, do you by any chance know other editors here who would be willing to lend a helping hand? It's a daunting task simply because I don't have the time for it (not like I did when I was 21-years-old and editing here in between going to college classes, rock/metal concerts, and weekend keg parties, LOL). Would you have any spare time to help with cleaning up citations and shortening them? That alone is time consuming work. Any help on that alone would be hugely appreciated, and I'd give you a shiny reward on your talk page for it! Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 13:12, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- You can get a lot of these via WP:TWL, if you meet the criteria? The Cambridge Companion, for instance, can be read in full via Cambridge Core, which is part of that. I'm happy to send over individual chapters and articles, if you let me know what you're looking for -- otherwise, the good people at WP:RX always amaze me with their skills in tracking down obscure sources. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:59, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Cool! Thanks for suggesting the Wiki Library. Oddly enough I knew nothing about it, probably because it was founded when I was overseas in the Peace Corps, and then shortly after that I moved to yet another country for my graduate degree and was not editing Wikipedia during that time either. How do I access this Cambridge Core, exactly? I don't see a link for it via the library. The resource request page looks promising, though. I will definitely utilize that and make a request or two there. Much appreciated! If the Cambridge Companion has a chapter or two on the early life and family upbringing of Octavian then it would be very helpful if you could share that. That's perhaps the part of the article that relies the most on primary source citations (I've started to reverse that already, but there is still much to be done there). Pericles of AthensTalk 17:22, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Feel free to email me any chapter as such from the Companion, if that's how you intend to share it (that's usually how I've shared things in the past, aside from using personal sandboxes). Pericles of AthensTalk 17:34, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Cambridge Core is under Cambridge University Press -- the TWL link is here; you'll have to be logged into TWL for it to work, or you might need to access it directly from the TWL page. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:36, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Cool! Thanks! I have access to the Companion now, virtually every chapter. I don't see anything in particular about the early life of Augustus, though, just various things about his reign after he became emperor. Still very useful for the later part of our article here on Wikipedia, but I'll need additional sources about his childhood and family life. Pericles of AthensTalk 19:52, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Have you come across this fairly new biography (2023)? It has a slightly unusual focus (each chapter is based on an astronomical event), but a quick flick through suggests it's probably got as much on his birth and childhood as we're likely to get -- I imagine Goldsworthy and Everitt are probably similarly close to what's possible there? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Nice find! Thanks for sharing. Although it contains a bunch of other tangential information, the first chapter of that book by Anne-Marie Lewis actually confirms a lot of material for the "Early life" section of our Wikipedia article. Bravo! When I have a chance tonight I will be adding this source to our bibliography and citing it generously in that section. Pericles of AthensTalk 21:32, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- I'm extremely happy to announce that Lewis (2023) has been added to "Sources" and cited in the article to confirm the birthplace as Ox Head on the Palatine Hill. I also relied on Lewis to create an endnote about Octavian's date of birth following the citation by Bringmann (2007). This article is starting to shape up! I have run out of time tonight, but I'll tackle it again later this week. I'm starting to feel much more optimistic about it! Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 01:54, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Hello again! Just letting you know that apparently only the introduction chapter of The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Augustus is available via PDF at www-cambridge-org. For whatever reason, the PDFs of other chapters only contain two pages: the cover page for the chapter followed by a blank page, and then nothing else. A shame! However, there are other sources to consult. The Cambridge Companion also doesn't help much with biographical details on Octavian's life, as we have discussed. Pericles of AthensTalk 17:28, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- Are you sure you're downloading the right bits? If, for example, you download the PDF for "Part II: Intellectual and Social Developments", you get the two pages, but if you download any of its sub-parts (which are the "real" chapters, like "3 - Mutatas Formas: The Augustan Transformation of Roman Knowledge"), I at least get the full PDF. If that doesn't work for you, shoot me an email via Wikipedia with what you need: I should be able to get it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- The problem was I was not able to see the sub-parts in the URL I was looking at, but I searched the book again in Cambridge Core, and now the sub-parts/chapters are listed. I'm reading Eder's chapter right now, so it appears that all is well. Thanks! As I suspected, though, it provides great information on the reign of Augustus, but not exactly the details of his early life as Gaius Octavius (and then Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus). It will at least be somewhat useful here and there, and I plan on citing Eder (2005) in the "Name" section at least once for backing up Bringmann (2007) on translating Augustus as "the revered". Pericles of AthensTalk 13:18, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
- Yes -- honestly, I think you might end up being disappointed if you want to write a biography of the "real" Augustus that cuts through the myth-making and ideology -- I'm not convinced such a thing is possible! We have to be led by the sources: if they don't give a huge amount of detail about what Augustus did between the ages of four and ten, or what they do say is clearly just variations on traditional and implication-heavy stories, there's not a lot we can do. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:34, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
- The problem was I was not able to see the sub-parts in the URL I was looking at, but I searched the book again in Cambridge Core, and now the sub-parts/chapters are listed. I'm reading Eder's chapter right now, so it appears that all is well. Thanks! As I suspected, though, it provides great information on the reign of Augustus, but not exactly the details of his early life as Gaius Octavius (and then Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus). It will at least be somewhat useful here and there, and I plan on citing Eder (2005) in the "Name" section at least once for backing up Bringmann (2007) on translating Augustus as "the revered". Pericles of AthensTalk 13:18, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
- Are you sure you're downloading the right bits? If, for example, you download the PDF for "Part II: Intellectual and Social Developments", you get the two pages, but if you download any of its sub-parts (which are the "real" chapters, like "3 - Mutatas Formas: The Augustan Transformation of Roman Knowledge"), I at least get the full PDF. If that doesn't work for you, shoot me an email via Wikipedia with what you need: I should be able to get it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Nice find! Thanks for sharing. Although it contains a bunch of other tangential information, the first chapter of that book by Anne-Marie Lewis actually confirms a lot of material for the "Early life" section of our Wikipedia article. Bravo! When I have a chance tonight I will be adding this source to our bibliography and citing it generously in that section. Pericles of AthensTalk 21:32, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Have you come across this fairly new biography (2023)? It has a slightly unusual focus (each chapter is based on an astronomical event), but a quick flick through suggests it's probably got as much on his birth and childhood as we're likely to get -- I imagine Goldsworthy and Everitt are probably similarly close to what's possible there? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Cool! Thanks! I have access to the Companion now, virtually every chapter. I don't see anything in particular about the early life of Augustus, though, just various things about his reign after he became emperor. Still very useful for the later part of our article here on Wikipedia, but I'll need additional sources about his childhood and family life. Pericles of AthensTalk 19:52, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Cambridge Core is under Cambridge University Press -- the TWL link is here; you'll have to be logged into TWL for it to work, or you might need to access it directly from the TWL page. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:36, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Feel free to email me any chapter as such from the Companion, if that's how you intend to share it (that's usually how I've shared things in the past, aside from using personal sandboxes). Pericles of AthensTalk 17:34, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Cool! Thanks for suggesting the Wiki Library. Oddly enough I knew nothing about it, probably because it was founded when I was overseas in the Peace Corps, and then shortly after that I moved to yet another country for my graduate degree and was not editing Wikipedia during that time either. How do I access this Cambridge Core, exactly? I don't see a link for it via the library. The resource request page looks promising, though. I will definitely utilize that and make a request or two there. Much appreciated! If the Cambridge Companion has a chapter or two on the early life and family upbringing of Octavian then it would be very helpful if you could share that. That's perhaps the part of the article that relies the most on primary source citations (I've started to reverse that already, but there is still much to be done there). Pericles of AthensTalk 17:22, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- You can get a lot of these via WP:TWL, if you meet the criteria? The Cambridge Companion, for instance, can be read in full via Cambridge Core, which is part of that. I'm happy to send over individual chapters and articles, if you let me know what you're looking for -- otherwise, the good people at WP:RX always amaze me with their skills in tracking down obscure sources. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:59, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for highlighting these as important sources, but do you have access to these books? I have access like anyone else to resources made available on Google Books, but I'm not buying things on Amazon simply to improve a Wikipedia article (I'll see if Google Books contains snippets of these, but I'll need full access on a database like Internet Archive if I'm not driving down to my local university library). I don't work in academia, so I no longer have access to databases like JSTOR. I was at least able to use Fratantuono (2016) to untangle weeds and clean up the mess made by other editors in the "Names" section, deemphasizing Suetonius given @AirshipJungleman29's concerns about primary sources being used uncritically (though I don't mind retaining them in certain spots simply to buttress secondary sources and as a useful reference for readers). This article is going to take so much work, but unfortunately my workday has already begun, and I barely have a single free evening this entire week to sit down and give this article the attention it deserves. If you do not have the adequate spare time in your own busy life to help with edits to this article, do you by any chance know other editors here who would be willing to lend a helping hand? It's a daunting task simply because I don't have the time for it (not like I did when I was 21-years-old and editing here in between going to college classes, rock/metal concerts, and weekend keg parties, LOL). Would you have any spare time to help with cleaning up citations and shortening them? That alone is time consuming work. Any help on that alone would be hugely appreciated, and I'd give you a shiny reward on your talk page for it! Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 13:12, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Got to make this one brief, I'm afraid:
- UPDATE: I've made some small but noteworthy improvements already by using Bringmann (2007), but it's a real headache to clean up the sloppiness of other editors, especially in the "Name" section of the article that was created after my successful Featured Article candidacy of 2007. Too many cooks spoil the broth, so to speak! For instance, someone cited Goldsworthy (2014) without bothering to let us know which page number they consulted, and this particular citation was used to buttress a primary source citation for Suetonius. Ugh! There are a lot of weeds to untangle here, but I hope everyone will please be patient as I try to use what little spare time I have in the coming two months to address these problems. I have asked another Wiki editor who I've collaborated with in the past for help on this, but unfortunately this is out of their depth. @UndercoverClassicist Do you happen to have direct access to high quality recently published reliable sources on Augustus? I have a few books about ancient Rome lying around at home (like the aforementioned one by Bringmann), but I cannot use them for verifying everything. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I could use a helping hand right about now, because this whole thing is starting to give me a migraine, I'm sleep deprived as it is, and it's really starting to stress me out. I'm not looking forward to seeing one of my FAs lose its status only because I no longer have the adequate spare time in my busy life to work on articles here. Thanks for any help in advance and any life preservers thrown my way! Also pinging User:Johnbod for help on this, out of sheer desperation (sorry to drag you into this mess, old friend, not sure who else to contact at this point since I rarely frequent Wikipedia anymore). Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 03:18, 28 April 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting here that I will be busy all day today, but will make a concerted effort tomorrow (Sunday, April 26th) to read through Bringmann (2007), which I own, and continue citing that source in the article. I will also continue consulting Roller (2010) and adding citations from that source. If anyone has suggestions for easily accessible sources found online (via Google Books, for instance), that would be highly appreciated. I don't have a lot of time to drive down to the nearest university library and spend a day there finding suitable sources, reading them, taking notes, and then citing them here in the article. I'd rather avoid all of that just to salvage my old Featured article, but I will do what is necessary. Pericles of AthensTalk 18:03, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist I think you'll be pleased to know that I have moved Galinsky (2012) out of the "Further Reading" section and into the "Sources" section, so that I could cite his work in both the "Early life" section and "Legacy" sections of the article. Hurray! Serious progress is being made, especially since the "Legacy" section needs a serious cleanup. That first paragraph will need many more citations, but paragraphs have been rearranged more logically per subject matter, and Galinsky provides excellent input and a nuanced perspective about the Pax Augusta that was sorely missing from the article. Hopefully within a couple months all primary source citations will be diminished or relegated to support status or endnotes, and recently-published reliable sources like Roller, Lewis, Bringmann, and Galinsky will buttress, clarify, and expand on points made by Eck & Takacs. Pericles of AthensTalk 12:50, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- A suggestion rather than an instruction -- it might be a good idea to try to get one (fairly short) section "done" -- that would mean that reviewers here can get a sense of what the final product will look like, and give a steer if needed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:35, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Not a bad suggestion! In that case the "Name" section at the very beginning should be a top of the list priority. It still needs a bit of work, and I'll make sure everything there has a proper secondary source citation. After that I'll continue work on the "Early life" section. I'm happy to have cited Galinsky where he was truly needed, though. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:58, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist It's only one small step, but I'm happy to announce that the "Name" section has at least been cleaned up, reworded a bit, filled with new citations from secondary sources, and all primary source citations have been moved into endnotes for now. Let me know if this looks suitable, or if further changes must be made to elevate the quality of that section (to meet our rigorous FA standards). Cheers! Pericles of AthensTalk 15:55, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Not a bad suggestion! In that case the "Name" section at the very beginning should be a top of the list priority. It still needs a bit of work, and I'll make sure everything there has a proper secondary source citation. After that I'll continue work on the "Early life" section. I'm happy to have cited Galinsky where he was truly needed, though. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:58, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- A suggestion rather than an instruction -- it might be a good idea to try to get one (fairly short) section "done" -- that would mean that reviewers here can get a sense of what the final product will look like, and give a steer if needed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:35, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- What are the high-quality sources in the Further Reading section for me to try and add into the paragraph? Thelifeofan413 (talk) 18:16, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Thelifeofan413 Most of those sources seem useful, but which "paragraph" are you referring to here? The first one in the "Legacy" section that I mentioned? That one simply lacks enough citations from reliable sources, with several sentences failing to have inline citations. Most of these statements are obviously factually correct (on the same sort of level as the claim that "George Washington was the first president of the United States"). However, they still require citations per the strict standards of a Featured status article. I'm unfortunately too busy today and perhaps all weekend to delve back into this project, but I will have time next week to provide more citations. If you're able to add even one citation (using the "sfn" shorthand method), that alone would be a serious contribution and a really big help! Thank you. Pericles of AthensTalk 20:28, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
- I will try to do this as when my schedule permits. Thelifeofan413 (talk) 07:00, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Thelifeofan413 Most of those sources seem useful, but which "paragraph" are you referring to here? The first one in the "Legacy" section that I mentioned? That one simply lacks enough citations from reliable sources, with several sentences failing to have inline citations. Most of these statements are obviously factually correct (on the same sort of level as the claim that "George Washington was the first president of the United States"). However, they still require citations per the strict standards of a Featured status article. I'm unfortunately too busy today and perhaps all weekend to delve back into this project, but I will have time next week to provide more citations. If you're able to add even one citation (using the "sfn" shorthand method), that alone would be a serious contribution and a really big help! Thank you. Pericles of AthensTalk 20:28, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist Hello! As the editor who initially wrote and submitted this article as a FAC back in 2007, it behooves me 18 years later to now safeguard my little legacy here at Wikipedia. This review comes as no surprise, of course, considering how the article was never that stellar to begin with and further edits over time have diminished its quality even further (for the record I was not the one to add the smattering of primary sources cited in the article). I wrote this article when I was a 21-year-old in college with nothing better to do. I am now a middle aged man with a demanding full time job and an absurd amount of social commitments this spring. Please allow me a proper amount of time to address all of these concerns (at least a couple months). I have begun an earnest effort to address them by using up my break time at work (when I could be exercising instead, LOL) to cite Roller (2010) as a buttressing source for Eck & Takacs (2003). The latter is admittedly overused, but I don't see a need to remove any citations from that source if we can simply buttress it instead with multiple layers of verification via other cited secondary sources. Roller is certainly useful as an academic source for the bits about Cleopatra and Antony; I plan on adding other sources in the coming weeks. Unfortunately I do not have time tonight or even tomorrow night to continue work on this given my social commitments, but hopefully I can continue working on this by Thursday night and maybe, if I'm very lucky to have any free time and not utterly exhausted, on Sunday afternoon as well. I simply do not have ample time to do all of the work that is truly needed. I'm going to have to call on you and others to please aid me in my efforts to research secondary sources and add citations where they are most needed. Also, @AirshipJungleman29, if you could clarify exactly what you mean by "not enough detail on legacy and assessment in post-classical politics," I could begin to address that, but I'm not sure which details are missing in your estimation. Kind regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 15:05, 22 April 2025 (UTC)
- Also pinging @Carlstak and T8612:, who were in the discussion as well. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:46, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 Thanks for letting me know about the review! It was quite a long time ago when I wrote the article and submitted it for Featured status, back when I was in college! I'll have a look at it over the weekend when I have a chance. Hopefully I will have some time next week to work on improving things here. Pericles of AthensTalk 11:01, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:10, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria Hello! Just letting you know that I'm still working hard to improve the article and made significant edits just today on the "Early life" section, after completing the initial "Name" section. Unfortunately I have a very busy weekend, but I am still fully committed to improving the article and will tackle it more next week when time permits. So far I have made a concerted effort to replace primary source citations with secondary source ones, shifting the former to endnotes where they can still be useful as further references. I plan on finishing the "Early life" section by the end of next week, and will comb through the rest of the article after that. I've been using a variety of sources for that job, and lately I've been relying a lot on Galinsky (2012) for the childhood and upbringing of Octavian. I plan on using a variety of secondary sources, of course, and have beefed up the article here and there with ones that were previously delegated to the "Further reading" section (Galinsky included). Please give me a couple months to make further improvements before final judgments are made. I'm doing all of this in my very limited spare time, so if you know anyone else who could help, please let me know! Regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 18:53, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: User talk:Hotwiki, Notified: User talk:TarnishedPath, Notified: User talk:Rhodes00, Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Music, 1, 2, 3, 4,
This 2005 FA BLP has some glaring prose and quality of writing issues; with several of the very long paragraphs having some fancruft issues and too-close paraphrasing from journalists and music critics. And generally the article, like Ms. Minogue, is in a very different state than it was when it was listed as a FA. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 10:57, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
- PHShanghai, did you discuss these issues on the article's talk page before nominating here? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:05, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I've discussed all of these issues on the talk page for the last year or so. This is the most recent discussion, but the talk page discussions have been going since late 2023. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 11:09, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
- this shouldn't be too hard. I'm working on Beyonce at the moment but i'll start this soon. 750h+ 12:55, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- 750h+, are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- hmm. i'll see. the article doesn't currently look that bad and i think some paragraph-size reduction and quote/close-paraphrasing-removal could make this better. i'll see what i can do within the next month. 750h+ 06:30, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
- Take your time. It's quite a long career and there's still a lot of bloat to unload. I feel that the lead and the prose about her career post-2010 (when it was last reassessed for FA) can be improved the most; there is much lacking in the writing quality there, not very encyclopedic. The lead is very bloated but fails to mention important parts of her career (like her hit single which revitalized her career; Padam Padam.) PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 01:49, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- hmm. i'll see. the article doesn't currently look that bad and i think some paragraph-size reduction and quote/close-paraphrasing-removal could make this better. i'll see what i can do within the next month. 750h+ 06:30, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
- 750h+, are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Wikiproject Jewish Women, Wikiproject Jewish history, [1]
- @Ali Beary: please also notify major contributors. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
I am nominating this featured article for review because there have been issues with cleanup tags for over a year, and there appears to have been no attempt to resolve these issues. This is an issue with criterions 1c and 2c. The issues are as follows:
In the paragraphs beginning with In May 1940
and In 2015, Flemish journalist Jeroen De Bruyn
, there are unreliable source tags in the last sentence.
There is a "who?" cleanup tag after In January 2022, some investigators
.
In the middle of the paragraph beginning with Witnesses later testified
, there is a tag requesting a better source.
Near the end of the paragraph starting with On 19 August 2022
, there is a clarification needed tag.
There's not many, but I believe that an article isn't good enough for FA if there's cleanup tags. Thank you! Ali Beary (talk!) 18:13, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- I've looked into the points you listed:
In May 1940
: source replacedIn 2015, Flemish journalist Jeroen De Bruyn
: can you elaborate on the problem with the source?In January 2022, some investigators
: clarifiedWitnesses later testified
: can you elaborate on the problem with the source?On 19 August 2022
: clarified
- – Editør (talk) 00:29, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- @Ali Beary, could you explain the issues with the two remaining tagged sources so it is clear what needs to be done to remove the tags? – Editør (talk) 08:01, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- I have removed the two remaining cleanup templates and explained why in the first and second edit summary. I believe all issues in this review have now been resolved. – Editør (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Editør, what do you mean in the first edit summary by "with Wikipedia pages as sources"? Ali Beary (talk!) 12:03, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
- The publications are notable and have a Wikipedia page to establish this. – Editør (talk) 12:10, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Editør, what do you mean in the first edit summary by "with Wikipedia pages as sources"? Ali Beary (talk!) 12:03, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
- I have removed the two remaining cleanup templates and explained why in the first and second edit summary. I believe all issues in this review have now been resolved. – Editør (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Ali Beary, could you explain the issues with the two remaining tagged sources so it is clear what needs to be done to remove the tags? – Editør (talk) 08:01, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Note that notability and reliability are different things; a source can be notable but not reliable, or reliable but not notable. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:20, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- The edit summary was also meant to refer the reader to these Wikipedia pages that don't indicate any problems with reliability of the referenced publications.
- @Nikkimaria, I think you are just explaining terms that could have been confused here. Or did you also mean to imply that you believe there is an issue with the reliability of these two sources? – Editør (talk) 13:32, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- Note that notability and reliability are different things; a source can be notable but not reliable, or reliable but not notable. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:20, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at the specifics of the two sources, just noting that whether a Wikipedia page exists about them doesn't really matter. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:49, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, noted.
- @Ali Beary, have all issues now been resolved? – Editør (talk) 17:29, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- I suppose all the issues are solved. The article may stay as a FA. Thank you for your work on fixing this! If something happens and the article is nominated for FAR once more, would you like to be pinged to fix it? Ali Beary (talk!) 12:31, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- Great! You may ping me, although I am not really a frequent contributor of this article. – Editør (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- I suppose all the issues are solved. The article may stay as a FA. Thank you for your work on fixing this! If something happens and the article is nominated for FAR once more, would you like to be pinged to fix it? Ali Beary (talk!) 12:31, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at the specifics of the two sources, just noting that whether a Wikipedia page exists about them doesn't really matter. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:49, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology, WikiProject Hong Kong, WikiProject China, Deryck Chan
I am nominating this featured article for review because there seems to be missing information throughout this article. The "Colour specifications" section says that it is the same colour as China's flag, but then doesn't specify what that is. It also doesn't specify what other colour(s) are used in the flag. The flag has also been used as a symbol in recent events concerning Hong Kong, but this has not been outlined in the article. There are some unreliable and lower-quality sources used as inline citations, which should be replaced by higher-quality sources. Z1720 (talk) 14:00, 24 February 2025 (UTC)
- @Z1720, I added other colors and the protest use of the Black Bauhinia variant. History6042😊 (Contact me) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
- @History6042: There is still a citation needed tag, and missing information about more recent events. Are you interested in addressing these concerns? Z1720 (talk) 16:52, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- What more recent events are you referring to. History6042😊 (Contact me) 20:51, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe they are referring to the use of the last colonial flag of Hong Kong, particularly during and after the 2014 protests, as a symbol of Hong Kong independence or autonomy. I moved the details to Flag of Hong Kong (1871–1997) to keep this article concise.
- I doubt this is the case, but if they are referring to the current flag of Hong Kong being used alongside the PRC flag by pro-Beijing demonstrators, well, that's not really a recent development (or rather a significant change since its introduction). Yue🌙 02:13, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't see the previous question. Yes, I am referring to the flag's use in post-1997 protests. While it is not a significant change, its continued used by pro-Beijing protesters is worth mentioning and the intended symbolism. Is the flag also used by protesters for other causes? Z1720 (talk) 13:54, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- Do sources distinguish that from the general waving of one's flag as a show of patriotism/nationalism? It seems reasonably run-of-the-mill symbolism. CMD (talk) 15:08, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
- I've seen Chinese-language sources, and can probably find English-language sources, that specifically note the use of the HKSAR flag by counter-protesters during the 2014, 2019, and 2020 anti-government protests. That's just a sentence or two missing at most though. Yue🌙 21:45, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- Similar but not exactly what I was talking about: CNN article on the HKSAR flag being targetted by protesters as a symbol of the PRC / HKSAR governments. Yue🌙 21:49, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- That report does not suggest there is anything particularly notable about the flag being a symbol of the PRC/HKSAR governments. The symbolism is already explained in the article: Chinese flag red, Chinese flag stars, one country two-systems. Perhaps something could be added about how the flag has not gained acceptance by those who disagree with this political situation, but that pro-government protesters use a government flag is to be expected. Flag defacement/variation might also be worth some words, but it is also not unusual. CMD (talk) 08:07, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks everyone for your research. Considering the above, it looks like the flag's use in protests was not as widespread as I thought, so it seems fine as-is and more information can be added later. I'll take another look at the article when the citation needed tags are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 12:48, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- That report does not suggest there is anything particularly notable about the flag being a symbol of the PRC/HKSAR governments. The symbolism is already explained in the article: Chinese flag red, Chinese flag stars, one country two-systems. Perhaps something could be added about how the flag has not gained acceptance by those who disagree with this political situation, but that pro-government protesters use a government flag is to be expected. Flag defacement/variation might also be worth some words, but it is also not unusual. CMD (talk) 08:07, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- Similar but not exactly what I was talking about: CNN article on the HKSAR flag being targetted by protesters as a symbol of the PRC / HKSAR governments. Yue🌙 21:49, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- I've seen Chinese-language sources, and can probably find English-language sources, that specifically note the use of the HKSAR flag by counter-protesters during the 2014, 2019, and 2020 anti-government protests. That's just a sentence or two missing at most though. Yue🌙 21:45, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- Do sources distinguish that from the general waving of one's flag as a show of patriotism/nationalism? It seems reasonably run-of-the-mill symbolism. CMD (talk) 15:08, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't see the previous question. Yes, I am referring to the flag's use in post-1997 protests. While it is not a significant change, its continued used by pro-Beijing protesters is worth mentioning and the intended symbolism. Is the flag also used by protesters for other causes? Z1720 (talk) 13:54, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- What more recent events are you referring to. History6042😊 (Contact me) 20:51, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- @History6042: There is still a citation needed tag, and missing information about more recent events. Are you interested in addressing these concerns? Z1720 (talk) 16:52, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:17, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- I removed or adjusted material that was unsourced. I don't think the flag's use by pro-government protesters is particularly notable. The article should be okay now, in my opinion. Yue🌙 19:07, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Yue: I think all is to add to the lead information about its use, both as a government symbol and in recent events. Are you willing to add that? Z1720 (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
Done. Yue🌙 23:43, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Yue: I think all is to add to the lead information about its use, both as a government symbol and in recent events. Are you willing to add that? Z1720 (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. My concerns have been resolved. Z1720 (talk) 21:17, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
- "A discrepancy in this rule was observed during the opening ceremonies of the 2009 East Asian Games. Normally, the organization's flag and the host's flag are raised to equal prominence and the organization's flag cannot be smaller than any other flag.[18] However, when Hong Kong hosted the 2009 East Asian games, three flags (the Hong Kong flag, the Chinese flag, and the East Asian Games Association flag) were raised, with the Hong Kong flag on the left, the EAGA flag the same size on the right, and the Chinese flag larger and higher than both flags in the centre, thus making the EAGA flag smaller than another opening ceremony flag.[19][20]" - this is sourced to an olympic manual, a youtube video of the occurrence, and then a website of unclear reliability - is any of this due weight?
- This article relies heavily on websites that are part of the Flags of the World umbrella, which is not considered to be reliable - see WP:FOTW. crwflags is part of this, as well as the flagspot reference (""Colonial Hong Kong". Flags of the World. 18 August 2007.")
- The RSP entry for The Economist states "Its pseudonymous commentary columns and other opinion pieces should also be handled according to this guideline." "A.T. (4 July 2012). "Free speech in Hong Kong: Show of strength". Analects. Hong Kong. Archived from the original on 23 July 2012. Retrieved 24 July 2012." is a blog post under the Economist blog grouping which is pseudonymous - is this a high-quality RS?
I don't think this article is ready to be kept yet. Hog Farm Talk 00:20, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Maclean25, Canadian Wikipedians' notice board, WikiProject Mining, WikiProject Cities, WikiProject Organized Labour
I am nominating this featured article for review because there are uncited statements in the article, the "Demographics" section is underdeveloped and there is information in the lead that editors cannot find in the article body (outlined on the article talk page). Z1720 (talk) 21:54, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
- I am working on the article Cos (X + Z) 22:58, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
- Cos, could we get an update? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:32, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I will continue my work on the article this week. Cos (X + Z) 21:44, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- Resolved uncited statements and remove WP:OR from lead. Cos (X + Z) 19:10, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
- I will continue my work on the article this week. Cos (X + Z) 21:44, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- @CosXZ: Thanks for updating this article. I think the only major information missing is the results from the 2024 BC and 2025 Canadian election. Z1720 (talk) 00:31, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Z1720 I have added the 2024 BC election results. Elections Canada has not yet released the 2025 Canadian election results by polling station. Cos (X + Z) 19:11, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
- @CosXZ: Thanks for updating this article. I think the only major information missing is the results from the 2024 BC and 2025 Canadian election. Z1720 (talk) 00:31, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
- No FARC needed concerns have been addressed and resolved. Z1720 (talk) 15:21, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep issues have been resolved. Cos (X + Z) 18:42, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
Featured article removal candidates
[edit]- Place the most recent review at the top. If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.
- Notified: PL290, WikiProject Tennessee, WikiProject Pop music, WikiProject Rock music, WikiProject Musicians
Review section
[edit]As noted in March 2025 by RetiredDuke, this 2009 FA suffers from serious issues. There is significant uncited material, poor prose with excessive quotations, a lack of recent coverage, and an especially woeful "Legacy" section. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:31, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC; issues unaddressed. Hog Farm Talk 20:28, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Issues raised in the review section include sourcing, currency, and prose. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Bookworm857158367, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Russia, WikiProject Christianity, WikiProject Women's History, WikiProject Women in Religion, first notice 2023-02-12, second notice 2025-02-27
Review section
[edit]I am nominating this featured article for review because concerns remain after it was noticed over two years ago, including uncited statements, walls of text and overly-long sections. Z1720 (talk) 20:29, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
Altenmann
[edit]I would also like to notice a poetic, exalted tone in many places frowned upon in wikipedia, abundant of useless trifle and microglorification.
- " As a small child, she told a portrait painter, "You are a very ugly man and I don't like you one bit!" - all small childs are like that, especially privileged ones.
- " One day when she was out for a drive she saw a young child using crutches..." blabla - was it only once or it was systematic attitude? Not to say that such minor examples good for a book to make a volume, but not for encyclopedia
An there is lots of such stuff. I remember seeing this in our articles copied from EB-1911, in bios of royalties, full of praise and glory and godliness (unless these were the enemies of the Crown :-). --Altenmann >talk 20:54, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC - sourcing and tone issues unaddressed. Hog Farm Talk 18:49, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC no edits to address concerns. Z1720 (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Issues raised in the review section include sourcing, structure and prose. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: User talk:CrazyC83, tropical cyclone Wikiproject, [diff for talk page notification]
Review section
[edit]I am nominating this featured article for review because it should probably be merged. The Isabel article is under 5,000 words, so this sub-article could fit in its entirety, even though a lot of the information is redundant with other states in the Mid-Atlantic. I was the original writer, and wrote the rest of the Isabel series. The original FAC even had some opposition due to its short length, so I don't think the FARC will be that controversial. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:16, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC and then (IAR) delist per Hurricanehink. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:47, 8 April 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Substantial information was cut [2] in the last merge, thus suggesting this article cannot handle the extra content without important information being removed. --68.216.63.106 (talk) 22:45, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
- What important information was removed? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:30, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
- I can’t see exactly what, but paragraphs of information was removed, some with particularly notable information about certain localized yet significant impacts. Generally, merges are in place when the information can all fit, and I don’t think it could in that case. 2600:387:15:5310:0:0:0:B (talk) 16:11, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, there was a lot of duplicate information across various states from when they had all separate sub-articles. Such as FEMA declarations or states of emergency. Similarly, multiple instances of road flooding or power outages or downed trees or watches and warnings don't need to be repeated across each state. That's the kind of information that, when this article is merged, would not be included, which is why I feel this article could be merged easily. So unless you can point to specific notable information that was excluded from other articles, then I don't feel that should apply to this FARC. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:22, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
- While the total amount of power outages in Pennsylvania is there, a lot of information more specific to the storm was cut. All information on Pennsylvania’s rainfall total was cut too. Rainfall totals in Connecticut and Massachusetts. Furthermore, all information on West Virginia was removed. 2600:387:15:5314:0:0:0:4 (talk) 22:25, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
- But does Wikipedia need to list the rainfall total for every single state, and should it even attempt it? That's what Also, no, there's West Virginia information in the article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:30, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
- I was wrong about WV, but I think at least state maximums should be recorded - also, 3” is regionally significant, representing ~75% of a months average precip. Also, all information on wind gusts in PA was removed, with some of them being near 50 mph. I think it’s too much information being removed. 2600:387:15:5317:0:0:0:7 (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
- Why should state maximums be included? Half of New England states only got an inch of rainfall. That's borderline trivial, which would make Isabel fail the FA criteria for a different reason. As for wind gusts, Isabel's article literally has two different PA wind gusts. I think you are being too picky when it comes to mergers, and I don't think any of this means that the Delaware sub-article should stay. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:48, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
- I mean, one inch of rainfall is highly significant in regions of the country. Hurricane Hilary, a FA, mentions the 2.1” of rain in Hilltop, AZ. 2600:387:15:5317:0:0:0:7 (talk) 15:14, 13 April 2025 (UTC)
- Why should state maximums be included? Half of New England states only got an inch of rainfall. That's borderline trivial, which would make Isabel fail the FA criteria for a different reason. As for wind gusts, Isabel's article literally has two different PA wind gusts. I think you are being too picky when it comes to mergers, and I don't think any of this means that the Delaware sub-article should stay. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:48, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
- One inch of rainfall in New England is completely different than two inches of rainfall in the desert. As a reminder for what Wikipedia is not, it is not a directory or an indisriminate collection of information. The rainfall totals need to matter for them to be in an article. At this point, your comments don't help much for this FARC, sorry to be blunt. The point stands with this nomination - the Delaware sub-article can be merged easily without loss of content, and that the Isabel article has not suffered from the mergers. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2025 (UTC)
- What important information was removed? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:30, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
- Why was it decided to go FAR->merge rather than merge->FAR? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- There was a proposal to merge the Delaware sub-article, along with other sub-articles, last year, but users opposed because the Delaware sub-article was featured. If people were opposing a merger because it was featured, I figured that FARC should be the first step then, but if I'm mistaken, I can open a proper merge discussion for just this article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Scope and length. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:09, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delist - there's a lot of information that's needlessly specific to this state, with a lot of overlap compared to other nearby states. Isabel wasn't particularly bad in Delaware. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: WikiProject Video games, WikiProject Square Enix, Favre1fan93, SubZeroSilver, Guyinblack25
Review section
[edit]I am nominating this featured article for review because...The media section wasn't written to a prose style, but as a list of each of its games, + the usage of a lot of unreliable/low quality/primary sources (Square Enix and random sources citing the devs' info) instead of secondary sources that exist. The media section was also written in lists instead of prose style. Additionally, the story section was incomplete and has an active tag template that is getting too long. There are plenty of unsourced statements, such as at the Gameplay section. The reception section was mostly written about KH being included in the rankings/listicles, which is trivia and irrelevant to readers. It should be rewritten entirely. What makes NAG and GamingDead reliable? There is also usage of low quality and out of place sources such as Twitter/X. Overall, the article obviously is in bad shape. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 08:31, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
- Boneless Pizza!, I believe this is your sixth open FAR (after Tasha Yar, Homer Simpson, Hydrogen, Edgar Allan Poe, and Goblin shark); do you have permission from the coords? Thanks, ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:47, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- Oops, I didn't. I thought the requirements for us to do FAR is to open them once for week only. I apologize about that. Pinging @FAR coordinators: 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 17:09, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- Fine for this to proceed, but mind the limit in future plz. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:42, 15 March 2025 (UTC)
I was one of the main contributors to the article when it passed its FAC in 2007. The assessment above looks pretty accurate; although I'm not sure if this needs to be closed or temporarily on hold for procedural reasons. Pending what the FAR coordinators say, this article should be reviewed and fixed at some point. I'm not sure how much I can help with clean up (looks like it'll be a big task), but I'll see what I can do. Any and all help would be appreciated. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:20, 13 March 2025 (UTC))
- Move to FARC no progress towards addressing concerns. Z1720 (talk) 00:27, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Issues raised in the review section include structure and sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delist. Plot summary tagged as needing attention for over three years. Unsourced statements include "unique", "improvement", "more powerful", and "longest". "Further reading" section should be between References and External links per MOS:LAYOUT. DrKay (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delist concerns remain, and the edits to the article are not addressing the concerns yet. Z1720 (talk) 12:58, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: ජපස, Praemonitus, Marisauna, Iantresman, Art LaPella, Vsmith, AP Astronomy, WP Physics, WP Color, WP Measurement, original notice in January 2023
Review section
[edit]Since the original notice in 2023, there have been periodic comments on the article's talk page regarding sourcing and other issues, including one from January raising possible OR concerns. There are 9 CN tags in the article. This is one of the last 48 remaining pre-2007s to be at the WP:URFA/2020 listing. Hog Farm talk 04:09, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
- I worked over the History section using secondary sources and removed my OR concern. Johnjbarton (talk) 20:14, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- I have provided citations for all the remaining CN tags. jps (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- Fixed and removed "broken anchors" template. PianoDan (talk) 00:20, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
I just added a note to the talk page, encouraging a review of Tong's textbook "Cosmology" which points out that even Hubble and Silpher, credited with discovering that redshift correlated with distance, did not understand that this implied an expanding universe. Apparently, they called it the "de Sitter effect" for a while; it took a while to figure out that galaxies are receding because the universe is expanding (and they were not the ones to figure this out). Science is non-linear. The obvious, canonically-accepted answer today is usually confused and muddled when first stated. 67.198.37.16 (talk) 00:43, 15 March 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that this interesting aside is probably best left explained at the expansion of the universe article. Redshift is an empirical phenomenon, and the interpretation that it is due to metric expansion deserves some economy on a page dedicated to the observable shifts of light rather than the history of how such shifts were interpreted. jps (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- Johnjbarton - Do you have any further thoughts on this? Hog Farm talk 21:36, 6 April 2025 (UTC)
- I replied on Talk:Redshift#Redshift_as_the_"de_Sitter_Effect" as in my opinion this suggestion is for a minor addition to Redshift which is not well connected to the topic based on the sources we have. It's more about Hubble's Law and in any case not a showstopper for FAR. Johnjbarton (talk) 00:30, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- Johnjbarton - Do you have any further thoughts on this? Hog Farm talk 21:36, 6 April 2025 (UTC)
- Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:17, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Stalled. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:49, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- " although the word does not appear unhyphenated until about 1934, when Willem de Sitter used it." - I'm concerned that this bit, which is only sourced to the '34 de Sitter paper, is original research
- "There are several websites for calculating various times and distances from redshift, as the precise calculations require numerical integrals for most values of the parameters" - of the four examples provided: are the UCLA ones the same webpage or am I missing something? And is the Kempner personal website a major player in this, or is this some sort of spammy link?
- "As a diagnostic tool, redshift measurements are one of the most important spectroscopic measurements made in astronomy." - claim of something as "most important" should have a source
- There is a page needed tag that should be addressed
- "at a redshift of z = 8.6, corresponding to 600 million years after the Big Bang." - are these detailed numbers supported by the immediately preceding source?
- "The Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS), is ongoing as of 2013 and aims to measure the redshifts of around 3 million objects" - is this still ongoing? I checked the cited source and it refers to 2014 in the future tense
This is in better shape than it was. Hog Farm Talk 20:12, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Henry Flower, Hinduism-related topics notice board, WikiProject Buddhism, WikiProject Archaeology, WikiProject Architecture, WikiProject Cambodia, WikiProject Southeast Asia, WikiProject Historic sites, WikiProject World Heritage Sites, 2023-01-28, 2025-02-27
Review section
[edit]I am nominating this featured article for review because the "Restoration and challenges" section needs to be updated, and there are some uncited statements in the article. No response and few edits to notice posted on the article's talk page. Z1720 (talk) 16:04, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC, no progress and issues have remained unaddressed. Fathoms Below (talk) 12:56, 28 April 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC no progress on addressing concerns. Z1720 (talk) 14:40, 28 April 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Issues raised in the review section include currency and sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:19, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delist Only minor edits since FAR was opened, unsourced statements remain. Z1720 (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delist. Unsourced paragraphs and statements in the "Outer enclosure" and "Central structures" sections. While some of these statements are merely describing the features, others involve terms like "often" and "because", which are interpretations that are not supportable by looking at the ruins alone. I would also like some reassurance that the use of older sources from 1932, 1944 and 1951 is still justified or whether scholarship has advanced since then. DrKay (talk) 09:40, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Notified: Adam Bishop, Yannismarou, WikiProject Greece, WikiProject Middle Ages, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Law
Review section
[edit]As noted in February 2025 by Hog Farm, this 2004 FA suffers from sourcing issues. There is considerable uncited material, while several unreliable sources (most primary and medieval, one modern and not meeting WP:SCHOLARSHIP) are used for referencing. As such, FA criterion 1c) is not met. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2025 (UTC)
- Ha, the standards were so much lower back then...I can still picture myself writing this in my dorm room as first-year grad student. Yannismarou greatly improved upon the original, but there is still a lot of work to do. It could be brought up to the current standards, I think, although I doubt that I have the time to do it myself right now. I have no objection to de-listing it. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:12, 13 April 2025 (UTC)
- Move to FARC per above. Hog Farm talk 18:48, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
FARC section
[edit]- Sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- Matarisvan has started some work here. Hog Farm Talk 19:14, 1 May 2025 (UTC)