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Too many lords, not enough stewards

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 1, 2018 20:08 UTC (Thu) by msnitzer (guest, #57232)
In reply to: Too many lords, not enough stewards by josh
Parent article: Too many lords, not enough stewards

You won't get an argument from me about anything you just said. (Though I'm not sure how what you said relates to what you replied to.. nor how I've conflated anything).

Everyone has an opinion on how best to handle things. Yet they cannot all be "the chosen". All this bickering about kernel community (dys)function has run its course for me. (Now if I could only figure out how to shutoff the N lwn.net email notifications I've committed to while replying N times).


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Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 1, 2018 20:09 UTC (Thu) by msnitzer (guest, #57232) [Link]

Whew, found it: Your comment notifications.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 1, 2018 20:15 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

> (Though I'm not sure how what you said relates to what you replied to.. nor how I've conflated anything).

You said:

> That said, the people who establish themselves as actively hostile and dogmatic that get feedback they disagree with and then keep digging in to become so fully entrenched in their position: those people set themselves up for a serious fall. And when that fall happens, if they aren't humble and they decide to lash out by saying that they were personally attacked and fell threatened, etc. They are just posturing and trying to "reverse the heat", to flip reality. They invited challenge and couldn't handle it. Those people melt into a puddle like snowflakes when heat is applied.

You're reframing a discussion about the hostility of the kernel community to try to claim that people claiming that are just people who "get feedback they disagree with" and just can't take the heat. There's a standard derailing that happens in almost every discussion of this problem, where people start imagining a dichotomy where you can't stop the flames and attacks without stopping the feedback and degrading the quality of the kernel. That's a false dichotomy. You can, in fact, do both, and communities *other* than the Linux kernel have managed to do so.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 1, 2018 21:56 UTC (Thu) by msnitzer (guest, #57232) [Link]

yeah: NO. That isn't what I was doing. But nice try.

I'm using my Linux kernel maintainer experience to attempt to illustrate the kind of dynamic I've witnessed. People who cry foul when one hasn't occurred are "special". And a lot of this talk, thread and topic isn't rooted in anything real. Just a lot of people with hurt feelings talking in the abstract.

Framing the Linux kernel community as a caustic rat's nest of evil is one way to spin it. It just isn't reality.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 1, 2018 23:51 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

You've charged into the comments section of an article about problems widely observed by other kernel developers and maintainers, in order to decry that any such problem exists, and try to yank the conversation onto the issues *you* want to talk about. In the process, you've denied the existence of the problem, denigrated the developers working on it, writing off developers as having "hurt feelings" and "talking in the abstract", and accusing the developers who *have* seen those problems of making them up and being snowflakes.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 2, 2018 0:40 UTC (Fri) by msnitzer (guest, #57232) [Link]

Not a fair summary. You clearly haven't cared to read all my posts in this thread (that yes, never seem to stop.. because LWN's comments section is like whack-a-mole to respond to once you've foolishly said something like "snowflake"). But if you can identify with Daniel's talk then you're probably perfectly fine with false narratives.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 2, 2018 3:14 UTC (Fri) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

> You clearly haven't cared to read all my posts in this thread

I have, in fact. They paint quite a clear picture.

> But if you can identify with Daniel's talk then you're probably perfectly fine with false narratives.

Hey, look, yet another example of exactly what I referred to in the comment you're replying to and attempting to deny.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 2, 2018 0:34 UTC (Fri) by nivedita76 (guest, #121790) [Link]

You yourself are sound exactly like "a lot of people with hurt feelings talking in the abstract". Do you really believe that developers crying foul when nothing has happened is a real problem that occurs frequently?

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 2, 2018 1:22 UTC (Fri) by airlied (subscriber, #9104) [Link]

Have you got any public evidence of the anecdote you are using here?

Like we have plenty of public evidence of bad behaviour on the parts of maintainers (myself included I'm sure), but I'm interested in knowing how large the problem of developers crying fowl and escalating things on rejection using codes of conduct.

I've never experienced this in any of the project I've worked in as a maintainer, or as the top-level maintainer for the second largest subsystem in the kernel, so I'm surprised that it happens as frequently as you state.

Too many lords, not enough stewards

Posted Feb 2, 2018 1:48 UTC (Fri) by msnitzer (guest, #57232) [Link]

I do.. I'll reply off LWN though.


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