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Feature:Open Source and Capitalism
News Posted by CmdrTaco on Monday August 24, @08:55AM
from the stuff-to-read dept.
Greg Perkins has written in with a nice paper on Open Source and Capitalism. A lot of people say that these ideas are oil and water, but click the link below and read what Greg has to say about it. Update Greg sent in response to the many comments. It's appended to the end of his original piece.

The following was written by Slashdot reader Greg Perkins

Open Source and Capitalism

Greg Perkins

Many people associate the idea of Open Source software with collectivism (socialism, communitarianism, or communism). This is understandable given the language and ideas of some of the movement's founders and prominent participants, and given the average political tendencies of college students (at least here in the US), who seem to form the core of the Open Source movement. That is of course no cause for concern. What troubles me is that I keep noticing an undercurrent of mistrust and even open hostility toward capitalism among Open Source fans. There is really no good reason for this, and I worry that it may grow into something truly dangerous to the movement.

I have seen it asked: how can capitalists enjoy and even embrace the Open Source ideal? Hidden in this question is the notion that capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with Open Source, and that collectivism is not. While this is sure to be a touchy subject, I would like to try sharing the principled perspective of the Other Side.

In contrast to the above, I think that it is capitalism which is harmonious with Open Source, and that collectivism is incompatible; principled and thoughtful Open Source advocates should want to fully embrace capitalism for exactly the same reasons they love the idea of Open Source.

The (Societal) Elements of Open Source

I know that most people here have studied the meaning and mechanism of Open Source pretty carefully (consider the popularity of Raymond's The Cathedral and the Bazaar, for example). Let's focus briefly on the crucial societal elements which Open Source depends on for its success:

First, Open Source depends on the idea that cooperation is the preferred mode for dealing with one another, that cooperation and voluntary association to mutual benefit is the most effective, most productive, and, well, simply the Right Way for people to live in society, as contrasted against the use of fraud or physical force. Individual Open Source authors have the right to choose what code they will write and with whom they might like to work -- nobody is allowed to make them do it. When someone else makes that choice for you it is called slavery, and Open Source couldn't be as successful as it is on those terms; peoples' active, willing participation is required.

Second, Open Source depends on the idea of the individual human right to private property. Code wouldn't exist except by the effort of the people who build it -- it is by their choice and their sweat that their code even exists, and so they naturally have the right to decide how they will deploy their creation (otherwise, why should they bother to create it in the first place?). Linus himself expressed this spirit perfectly when he said, "he who writes the code gets to choose the license, and nobody else gets to complain." Open Source authors generously choose to apply licenses like the GPL to their code, thereby exercising their right to dictate how their effort may be used (and how it may not be used).

And finally, Open Source requires the protection of private property rights by a government. People need more than to merely feel justified in saying how they wish their code to be used (and not used) -- they must have confidence that their wishes will not be violated and the product of their best efforts taken and used at just anybody's whim. People can be secure in their cooperation with one another toward whatever ends each may choose when their right to private property is protected. Doing so essentially means barring the initiation of physical force and fraud from peoples' legitimate dealings, leaving them with nothing but cooperation and trade to mutual benefit. We can see this confidence manifest as authors willingly write Open Source code, or help someone write Open Source code: they do so because they trust that the license will be enforced, that someone else cannot take advantage of them and direct their efforts to ends they do not wish.

Another Look at Capitalism

Here's the point that might surprise some Open Source advocates: the above three crucial factors are precisely the same foundation that is required for true, unadulterated, laissez-faire capitalism.

Capitalism is a social system which respects and defends peoples' individual human rights, including the right to property. Further, capitalism is epitomized by cooperation, not by competition -- competition arises in the context of several participants trying to out-cooperate each other in a division-of-labor economy. As a tiny example, consider the handful of pencil companies competing in "cutthroat, dog-eat-dog" manner with each other for the chance to cooperate with you. Now think about how many other economic partners each of them works with in trying to bring you that pencil, from the people mining the graphite and harvesting the wood and rubber, to the transport systems which take them to the factories full of people, the manufacturing and chemical engineers who design the processes, the marketing and distribution channels, and the retailer who makes it easy for you to have that pencil with little or no effort. Thousands and thousands of people all peacefully work in concert to bring you a pencil (not to mention all those who cooperate with them, and those who cooperate with them, and so on). Multiply that by all the other economic values in your life that aren't as insignificant as a humble pencil, and you can see that fundamentally, capitalism means cooperation.

Full-blown capitalism is actually the separation of market and state. In particular, it is not the current American- or European-style mixed economy, with some people and businesses having the ability to use government to secure special advantage over others by lobbying for taxes, regulations, etc. To the extent that people and companies can use government to indirectly compel others in economic matters, capitalism and everything that makes it great is undercut. In the same way that we react to proposals to control the press or the church, in a true capitalist system everybody would simply laugh at someone trying to use the heavy hand of government to some economic advantage. We would just point to the constitutional clause banning any such interference, telling them, "Tough beans -- why don't you try to persuade the people in the marketplace that you are worth doing business with?"

Common Grounds

So if you cheer for the idea of Open Source, then please cheer for what makes Open Source work. If you do that, then you are also cheering for exactly what makes capitalism work, and everything that makes it such a powerful force for improving the human lot in the world.

As a libertarian and staunch capitalist, I get a true charge out of seeing an innovative entrepreneur or inventor serving himself by serving his fellow man in some new, clever, or powerful way. As a software engineer and rabid Open Source advocate, I get a true charge out of seeing the genius behind Stallman's GPL and the meteoric rise of Open Source and GNU/Linux. What makes these great to me is the same in both cases: people are able to be productive and peacefully reap the rewards of their hard work as they see fit.

Banning fraud and the initiation of force in our dealings with one another, and respecting people and their choices as individuals by protecting their property rights... These form a kind of systemic encouragement which brings out the very best within us -- and that is precisely what drives the raging success of both Open Source and capitalism.


Recommended Reading

Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt is a classic, widely regarded as a wonderful (perhaps the best) first introduction to economics.

Capitalism: a Treatise on Economics by Dr. George Reisman is a lucid and encyclopedic account of capitalism and all things economic.

Also see the works of scholars from the Austrian school of economics, like Ludwig Von Mises and Friedrich A. Von Hayek (1974 Nobel in economics), or scholars from the Chicago school of economics, such as Milton Friedman (1976 Nobel in economics) or James Buchanan (1986 Nobel in economics).

A Followup from Greg Perkins


250 comments in a day -- what a wonderful firestorm of discussion!

Now, surely the more harsh commentators understand that in a short piece like my editorial, no author could even try to cover every anticipated objection or outright mistake in reading and reasoning that a minority of the audience might bring. That would simply bore or distract the majority of readers, perhaps to the point of missing the original thesis! I needed to leave such issues for the ensuing discussion.

And boy, I was pleasantly surprised by what happened! A horde of nimble-fing ered Slashdotters quickly jumped in after the first wave of commentary, answering and dissecting almost all of the incoming criticism quite nicely, relieving me of a lot of work -- thanks much, guys! :^)

However, there remain a couple of important themes that my quick-response comrades didn't address, and so I'll try to cover those here -- starting with the most important and surprising one.

What the Hay??

This trend really did surprise me. Here are a handful of examples where it happened -- notice what they have in common when I put them side-by-si de?

    People, it amazes me that some one can equate Linux, a shining example of sharing and cooperation, with capitalism, a system based on hoarding and selfishness. [Rodion Raskolnikov (), "POLL!! POLL!! POLL!!"]

    [The] only thing i can assume is that the author had only 1 thing in mind and that was to get people to join his movement. "Well if i can show that capitalism==GNU then fellow GNUers will join my organization or whatever". [Paul ([email protected]), "Propaganda" ;]

    Open source functions on a gift economy. Sure, some of the behavior could be explained with free market principles ... but it is fundamentally different than the sort of role that the original essayist is trying to force it into. When I write code and I give it away, I get nothing but the satisfaction of writing interesting code, and the satisfaction that someone else is using it. That's not capitalism. [Anonymous Coward (), "Re: Back-asswards!"]

    It's always amusing to me to see some ultra captial weenies taking an idea like Open Source, which is effectively as socialistic as you can get in today's society falling all over themselves to cry out that it isn't, that capitalism and open source are exactly the same thing, yammer yammer yammer. [adr ([email protected] .muohio.edu), "amusing"]

    Sheesh. Grow up. "Open Source" ... only superficially shares some ideas with economic theory. There's more to living than just money, and there are many more models of economy than just two. [Markus Fleck ([email protected]), "Bla bla bla..."]

What these and so many other lines of criticism share is a clear misundersta nding of my thesis: they somehow latched onto the idea that I am identifying capitalist free markets and the Open Source movement as being the same thing, and then they went running down the rhetorical road on that false premise. Maybe I was not quite clear enough in the original piece, but I trust that if you look back up at my editorial with a little care, you will find that I never make such a claim. I was not even hoping for such an inference. Indeed, the summary in my conclusion seems quite clear about my hopes:

    So if you cheer for the idea of Open Source, then please cheer for what makes Open Source work. If you do that, then you are also cheering for exactly what makes capitalism work... These [common underpinnings] form a kind of systemic encouragement which brings out the very best within us -- and that is precisely what drives the raging success of both Open Source and capitalism.

Of course the Open Source movement and capitalist free markets are not one and the same, and I wouldn't want anyone to think so. My point is that they share a common foundation which fuels their tremendous effectiveness; these common underpinnings are themselves neither Open Source, nor capitalism -- but they foster both, and identifying them allows us to see and better understand the strengths of both Open Source and capitalism. This point leads naturally into my argument that capitalism is not fundamentally at odds with Open Source, a system which shares the same foundational underpinnings -- and so the mistrust and hostility I have been seeing directed at capitalism by some Open Source fans seems misplaced.

Open Source in the Here and Now

An interesting complaint surfaced regarding those underpinnings: some seem to think that it isn't legitimate that I rely on the fact that licenses like the GPL use the ideas of private property and the defense of individual rights, since by some interpretations of the Open Source Founders, its current form of is only accommodating our current circumstances and is not yet the Ideal Deal:

    The GPL exists (in this form) just because we live in a more or less capitalist world. Therefore it is adopted to the needs of this capitalist world. To conclude that because the GPL shows capitalistic elements, Open Source is capitalistic is IMHO an infinite loop. [Sebastian Schaffert ([email protected]), "Re: amusing", my underline]

    Open source matches the Marxist notion far better that the libertarian-ca pitalist notion, although it matches it only imperfectly. The GPL is very much a legal means of enforcing the kind of relationship that many believe ought to be natural law. It's a loophole, not the core of the philosophy. [vlax ([email protected]) , "Sometimes, you just have to laugh", my underline]

But my observation is resting on the actual, stunning success of Open Source in today's world, on today's GPL terms, and in today's< political systems -- not in some dreamt-of, hoped-for future place that may be talked about in recommended readings at the FSF. If someone wishes to argue that some other prospective Open Source system might do as well as (or better than) what we have today, then I welcome their giving it a try. But even if someone somehow makes that argument work, it wouldn't itself do anything to disturb my thesis that the powerful and successful Open Source movement we have before us right now shares the very same foundation as capitalism.

There's Cooperation -- and then there's Cooperation

Several people expressed trouble with my saying that "fundamentally, capitalism means cooperation":

    This is one of those motherhood statements that means nothing when you think about it carefully. Consider some alternatives:

    • "fundamentally, communism means cooperation"
    • "fundamentally, anarchism means cooperation"
    • "fundamentally, fascism means cooperation"
    • "acephalous band-level hunter-gatherer groups are fundamentally dependent on cooperation"

    The truth is, human existence pretty much "means cooperation". [Danny Yee ([email protected]), "capitalism means cooperation?"]

    I agree entirely with [the] gripe on the assertion "capitalism means cooperation". It is a null statement. What societal system could exist at all without some degree of cooperation. [The Famous Brett Watson ([email protected]), 'Null statement: "capitalism means cooperation"' ]

Certainly there is a lot of cooperation among people in most any societal system. But capitalism, with its explicit ban on fraud and the initiation of force between people for the express purpose of leaving people with nothing but persuasion and freedom of association in their dealings with one another, is quite different. Communism, fascism, socialism, and even our mixed economy, etc., do not consistently demand that we behave as traders, acting to mutual benefit, persuading our neighbor to work with us. Non-capitalist systems legitimatimize the initiation of (often quite naked) force as a common and convenient means of dealing with one another: all you need is to get the political pull or the popular votes to have your way, and others must "cooperate&quo; t; -- whether they ultimately benefit or not, and whether they want to or not.

The Slavery of Wages

Okay, one final, tiny point.

      When someone else makes that choice for you it is called slavery,< /I>

    Interesting comment coming from a capitalist.. So when my boss < I>says "do that" I am a slave, eh? You're basically defining capitalism as wage slavery.. not a very good start on an essay that is supposed to defend capitalism. [ir ([email protected] ox.com), "Free Software"]

Notice that I said "someone else makes that choice", not just that "something forces your choice". Despite appearances , I was actually being pretty careful about it. When your boss says "do that", you clearly have a choice where a slave does not: you can quit. But you would starve, you say? Not to be too flip about it (well, maybe just a little :^), but it sounds as if your primary complaint of "injustice" is with reality -- not with your boss. He should have freedom of association just as you should, and you have no right to do business with him unless he wants to do business with you (othewise you are not being a trader, and he would be a slave).

I know of no capitalist who would argue that you have a right to be exempt from the laws of reality.

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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. Slashdot is not responsible for what they say.

Very nice...
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:11AM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Not to mention that there is a form of trade going on between the original developers, the "later" developers, and the users. The users pay for the program by providing testing; later developers pay for the program by providing extensions and bug fixes. In return for providing a piece of software, the original developer gets testing, documentation, and extensions in return.


Totally wrong-headed
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:15AM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/
I don't have time to argue this at length right now, but I think this entire argument is totally wrong-headed. It looks like an attempt by a libertarian to fit something totally alien into the straightjacket of their dogma.

Open Source depends on the idea that cooperation is the preferred mode for dealing with one another, that cooperation and voluntary association to mutual benefit is the most effective, most productive, and, well, simply the Right Way for people to live in society, as contrasted against the use of fraud or physical force.
No argument with this.

Open Source depends on the idea of the individual human right to private property. Code wouldn't exist except by the effort of the people who build it -- it is by their choice and their sweat that their code even exists, and so they naturally have the right to decide how they will deploy their creation
This is a real long-hop. Just what, pray tell, would stop people writing software and sharing it with one another in a world without private property? (Or, at least, without those extensions to natural concepts of property that enable people to own (and evict the tenants from) buildings they have never seen, to control the distribution of books they have never read, among other absurdities.)

Open Source requires the protection of private property rights by a government.
While government protection of property rights may help open source in some cases - it helps to stop the distribution of things claiming to be a product that aren't, and the enforcement of the GPL to prevent Microsoft stealing Linux code -- this is hardly fundamental. If all Intellectual Property legislation was revoked tomorrow, Open Source would suffer a minor hiccup and then would thrive; only M$ and other corporate hoarders of information and "rights" would suffer.

As for the rest of the liber-babble - I don't have time now, but will try to respond tomorrow.

Danny.

Communism
by Tsk ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:15AM
(User Info) http://www.mygale.org/~softkid/
(note I like that kind of post more than anything else)

I think many american citisen are always seeing communism as the political dictature that prevaled in the former USSR.
Communism is more than that and isn't really what was applied. If I remember corrctly Marx and the other founders of the communism philosophy wanted the following to appen :
Free the people from their slavery-to-work state.To achieve such a goal an idea was to uptrun the ones who had the Power (an thus establish the proletarian dictature) -- In that regard Open source is not Communitsic at all.
Then once the requirement met the dictature was to be abolished and every man free (in all sence).
I dont't think trust is a value of capitalism (hence you need copyright/patent/etc ....)
but...
by Chad Cunningham ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:21AM
(User Info) http://socrates.mps.ohio-state.edu
I agree completely that capitalism, like the open source movement, depends on cooperation. However, I think one of the key points that you failed to mention was the purpose of the cooperation. In a capitalist system, companies and individuals cooperate with each other because it is mutually beneficial to them. They do it for the financial incentive, not for the public good. They do it because they can make more product, a better product, or a cheaper product, not because they want to work with others. Any company that operates on the pretense of public good rather than financial incentives will quickly fail in a capitalist system.

In this manner, I cannot agree that the open source software movement is closely tied to capitalism. The goal of the open source movement is to produce good software for the people. Typically, there is no financial reward. How can this be compatible with a capitalist system, which tells us that our value to society is measured by our wealth?

amusing
by adr ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:25AM
(User Info) http://entropy.muc.muohio.edu
It's always amusing to me to see some ultra captial weenies taking an idea like Open Source, which is effectively as socialistic as you can get in today's society falling all over themselves to cry out that it isn't, that capitalism and open source are exactly the same thing, yammer yammer yammer. They should really take some time out to read over some of the documents on www.gnu.org (the GNU project is, I don't think I have to remind /., the progenitor of Open Source in all its manifest forms) which are downright communistic as hell.

This is not to say that you can't make money from open source software -- heck, I make money from open source software myself -- just that open source fits much more into the socialist model and way of thinking than it does in rabid running dog capitalist Intellectual Property Over All.

Copyright Infringement is Your Best Entertainment Value,

adr.
Bravo!
by Case Roole ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:27AM
(User Info) http://billwatch.net/
Finding the right place of software in the market system is a difficult affair. Today's economic structure of the software industry is too often called a market without checking whether the conditions for a market obtain: full info on prices (does any one OEM know what the others have to pay for the Windows license?), there must be several suppliers (Microsoft calls "Windows" a standard, but they are the single supplier of products satisfying this standard, therefore they have a monopoly on the Windows standard.), and guess I could go on.

Perhaps it is somewhat out of fashion today, but I still greatly respect Milton Friedman's "Capitalism and Freedom" and would like to add it to the list of recommended reading.

-cjr

Stallman and the GPL
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:32AM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/
As a software engineer and rabid Open Source advocate, I get a true charge out of seeing the genius behind Stallman's GPL
Stop and think about the fact that Stallman and the Free Software Foundation are "collectivists" (not that this means much, given the libertaran tendency to label anyone who isn't a libertarian with the tag), or at least opposed to intellectual property.

(See, among other documents on the FSF site, Why Software Should Not Have Owners and A primer on the ethics of "intellectual property" - note the scare quotes.)

Now think about this; think about the origins of the GPL in such an ethos.

The GPL is only needed as a defensive measure, in a world where IP is another tool for those who have power (political or economic) to accumulate more of it. In a world where arbitrary accumulation and hoarding of power, in the form of "rights" over ideas, wasn't possible, we wouldn't need a GPL.

Yes, I know I'm in rant mode. Liber-babble does that to me.

Danny.

Re: Open source and capitalism
by Jean-Claude Guédon ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:33AM
(User Info) http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~guedon
There is one major flaw in this little piece. The argument about competition being really cooperation, as presented here, is a Jesuitic delight; yet; it does not convince. Even allowing for the fact that the major transactional axis is that between producer and consumer and not competition between producers (so much for the production function!), we all know that that relationship is not guided by cooperation so much as it is by manipulation of thought (through advertising,in particular).Calling this cooperation amounts to stretching semantics beyond credibility.

The better argument is that open source is not incompatible with capitalism as is clearly demonstrated by RedHat, Caldera, and others. These companies have simply redesigned the commodity being sold, not the economic game and that is why they are so dangerous to business locked in older ways, for example Microsoft. This is exactly what Bob Young says and what he told me in Paris last Spring. And I believe his point is very well taken.

At the same time, open source is independent of capitalism, which probably makes it appear threatening to people who tend to grant a kind of ontological status to the market. Anything that can work outside the market must appear as a transgression to anyone who thinks the market is the universal solution to human behavior and modes of association. However, the only way to make market cover all bases is to create a set of market varieties based on different form of capital. For example, scientific knowledge circulates in a way that has nothing to do with financial capital, but a lot to do with what Bourdieu calls "symbolic capital". Calling all these mechanisms a "market" does not really solve the capitalist's quandary because their forms of capital are mutually incommensurable.

Now, of course, if someone could design a meta-capital theory, then we might be led back to square one, depending on the form this meta-theory might take. However, I know of no such theory, but this may be due to my ignorance. If someone knows more than I do about the topic, I would be delighted to hear about it.

Jean-Claude Guédon
Université de Montréal
Terminology
by Stan Seibert ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:34AM
(User Info)
I am glad to see this article, because Open Source is often incorrectly associated with collectivism (which scares people).

This brings up the important terminology point:
The opposite of "open source" is called "proprietary" or "closed source". "Commercial" describes a completely different attribute. I think the confusion comes from "free software" when people think "free beer" and not "free speech" (as RMS has pointed out on many occasions).
No Subject Given
by sares ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:38AM
(User Info)
>they do so because they trust that the license will be enforced, that someone else cannot take advantage of them and direct their efforts to ends they do not wish.

hmmm.... I think that OSS _can_ be used "to ends they do not wish" in that any coder can take your source code and modify it as they please. Yes,it's not the done thing,but the whole point of OSS is that the creater doesn't retain absolute ownership in the way they would with standard copyright.
"Embrace and Extend"
by fred ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:40AM
(User Info)
The cobra of capitalist dogma has discovered
the tasty seabird of open source !
Re: but...
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:43AM
(User Info)
Ah...but herein lies the fallacy so many people attach to capitalism. Goods and services (open source programs, in our case) are created and exchanged so as to create the greatest increase in value. Not all value is monetary in nature. When two people exchange something, if they both are happy with the transaction, even if no-one's monetary wealth has increased, we have still had an increase in value. This is what capitalism is based on, not the concept that our value == our wealth.

This applies to Open Source because when I create an Open Source program and I want others to use it, I make it available for use. When I know that someone else is using it or making a derivative product from it, I am satisfied with the exchange, even if I was given nothing directly in return. I still received the fact that my code was used by someone else and that gives me all the satisfaction I need.

Bla bla bla...
by Markus Fleck (aka python) ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:46AM
(User Info) http://cscw.net/pinn/
Sheesh. Grow up. "Open Source" is about "playful evolution", and only superficially shares some ideas with economic theory.

There's more to living than just money, and there are many more models of economy than just two.

And "staunch capitalism" has still to prove that it will be helpful in solving the world's most pressing problems, like the protection of nature, global peace, and social standards.

Economic Theory
by Peter Kovacs ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:47AM
(User Info)
I see your point, and I'm inclined to agree with you, that Capitalism and Open Source are fundamentally the same, but I have a different view as to why.

Take the microeconomic view of perfect competition. Each firm will price their product at the marginal cost to produce. (If the market were perfect, I know it's not, so bear with me). Now take a closed-source shop, and an open source shop. It's quite apparent that the cost to produce open source software is significantly lower than the cost of closed-source (of the same quality). Because open source has a lower cost, and therefore (kinda) a lower marginal cost, the open source shop will win out.

It should be fairly obvious then, that Open Source software is really just an extension of capitalism, and that it's just a different way of competing with closed-source firms. (I.E. If I wanted to write software, I can either distribute it open source, or closed source. Which one would *you* download, given that you know nothing about me?)

Just my $0.02
not all libertarians like IP
by trask ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:51AM
(User Info) http://www.tinaa.com/
In fact, most of the libertarians I know despise so-called "intelectual property", and stating that open source depends on a goverment to protect IP is retarded.

I have a lot of respect for Real Property, but software and other ideas are NOT property.
Re: Communism in practice
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @09:51AM
(User Info)
The reason why many people think of a USSR:ish
system when they hear the word "communism" is that
that is the kind of system that has been implemented
everywhere a communist party has seized control.
Your theoretical communism might be good for
something, but it is unfortunately completely
unrealistic, or it would have happened in at least.
_one_ communistic state.
Wrong Capitalism definition
by Laurent Szyster ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:52AM
(User Info)

Sorry, but the whole editorial is nothing but a sophism.

First, you state that Open Source demands a state of law where private property rights (including copyrights) are enforced, making cooperation and trade the most efficient way to live together. This is true. Next you identify unaltered Capitalism with private property rights and freedom, and then declare that Open Source software demands Capitalism. That is only half-true, because the economic system called "Capitalism" is not only made from private property right and freedom but also - and mainly - from the accumulation of privately owned production means!

Now let's go back to Open Source. Software is often a production means: an equipment that allows one to produce processed data from unprocessed data. When software sources are not released, the copyright owner keep some form of private property on that equipment. You get the license to use it but you don't fully own it.

This is the same situation of a worker on an assembly line: he uses the tools to produce something but he does not own these tools. Moreover, he is not in a position to get his own tools and get rid of the boss. And that is why his boss makes profit. For the same reason, Microsoft and other software houses make huge benefits. Because, they have the sources and you don't ...

So, IMHO, free software works against capitalism because it does not allow the accumulation of source code ;-)

Laurent

Looks more like anarchy to me
by Alex Farran on Monday August 24, @09:54AM
(User Info)
If you really must apply political labels to software engineering practices then I think the best fit for free software isn't communism or capitalism, but anarchy. No one has power over anyone else, and you can do what you like with the code.

From the title I was hoping this might be a discussion of how the free software development model can be used by commercial industry. A common argument in favor of proprietry software is "programmers have to eat". I'd like to see more examples/ideas of how you can make money from writing free software. Are the two ideas contradictory? Can it work in all areas of the software industry?

Alex
capitalism means cooperation?
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:54AM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/book-reviews/
fundamentally, capitalism means cooperation
This is one of those motherhood statements that means nothing when you think about it carefully. Consider some alternatives:
  • "fundamentally, communism means cooperation"
  • "fundamentally, anarchism means cooperation"
  • "fundamentally, fascism means cooperation"
  • "acephalous band-level hunter-gatherer groups are fundamentally dependent on cooperation"
The truth is, human existence pretty much "means cooperation".

At the core of capitalism is not cooperation, but private property. And not a simple notion of private property, but a very extensive one, a system of property rights in which individuals can accumulate arbitrary amounts of property, of power. A system in which everything must be freely alienable, in which the only recognised relationship between people and land, or between people and material goods, is that of ownership.

(I would be much happier with a system of "inalienable" IP, in which a person had some rights over their ideas but could not transfer them to others.)

Also at the core of modern capitalism is the reification of the corporation as an entity with rights - rights that can supersede those of individuals. (And no, a corporation is not just its stockholders acting collectively - the distance between a typical free software project and the management of a typical corporation is immense.)

[Still more rants to come.]

Danny.

Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Tony Smolar ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:57AM
(User Info)
> While government protection of property rights
> may help open source in some cases - it helps to
> stop the distribution of things claiming to be a
> product that aren't, and the enforcement of the
> GPL to prevent Microsoft stealing Linux code
> -- this is hardly fundamental. If all
> Intellectual Property legislation was revoked
> tomorrow, Open Source would suffer a minor
> hiccup and then would thrive; only M$ and other
> corporate hoarders of information and "rights"
> would suffer.

I disagree. Abolishing Intellectual Property Laws
would destroy Open Source, and GPL as we know it. Think about it... There would be nothing to enforce the GPL, and anybody could take existing code, modify it, and NOT release the source.

Also, I believe many Open Source developers work for prestige. They might not want money, but they take pride in their work. If there were no intellectual property laws, then the author doesn't even need to be given credit. I.E, I could rename Linux to Tonix, remove all references
to Linus and claim that I wrote it. Nothing could stop me. I don't think most open-source developers would want to see that happen.
To Borrow an idea from Ayn Rand
by Mike McLinn ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:58AM
(User Info)
I couldn't agree more with the above essay. I would just like to propose one more similarity between Capitalism and Open Source.

Ayn Rand proposes, in her Objectivist philosophy, the concept of egotism as a driving force in our capitalist society. She believes that egotism is one of the most valuable commodities that is traded in a capitalist society, perhaps even more so than it's physical representation, currency.

In my opinion, just as it is the heart of capitalism, egotism is the heart of the Open Source movement. Open Source developers, while not trading in physical currency, recieve compensation in the form of respect, admiration, and in some cases, fame. This currency of respect is what drives the Open Source movement. I myself feel the desire to create "cool code", not just for my own use, but to gain the respect and acknowledgement of my piers.

Unfortunately, egotism is sometimes almost considered a "bad word". People don't like to admit that they do things for their own self interest. However, this unquestionably one of the foundations of capitialism.

The Open Source "movement" is not a step away from capitalism, it is just capitalism without any physical transaction. The transactions are just as real, they are transactions of ego.

I feel that it is important that we acknowledge our own selfish desires to gain respect. As Rand would have put it, any good deed that goes uncommended is a crime committed by every one of us. Supporting our developers with our respect and admirations is just as much a payment as writting a check or handing over cash. Thats why places like Slashdot are so important to the Open Source movement.

Thus, I would suggest that every true proponent of the Open Source movement "give back" in their own way. Whether that be contributing their own source, or sending "virtual beers". Every contribution is important, and every contribution is a form of payment.


Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by trask ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:00AM
(User Info) http://www.tinaa.com/
World's most pressing problems:

Protection of nature.... nod.
Global Peace... yup.
Social standards... huh?

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'social standards', but I can't think of any meaning that could be associated with those words AND be considered a 'pressing problem'.

Enlighten me?
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Evan Simpson ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:00AM
(User Info)
So the fact that people could still share source code without protection of property rights makes this essay "Totally wrong-headed"? Even given that this isn't your full response, you might have restrained the rhetoric until you were ready to back it up.

"If all Intellectual Property legislation was revoked tomorrow" is a straw man argument. Any major reversal of legal framework would be likely to hurt any groups which have grown under the old rules. Suppose instead that the entire modern computer industry had arisen without legal protections. Open Source(TM) wouldn't even exist, technically, since no licences could be enforced, and all software would be public domain. Of course, unless the creator of a piece of code managed to keep the source under lock&key;, it would be publicly available. Commercial software would probably be either shareware-like or dongle-dependent, with rabid security measures to protect source, and could incorporate anybody else's work regardless of their wishes.

Take the argument further - if physical as well as intellectual private property were not protected, how many of us would have a computer to write on in the first place?

My primary criticism of communism, even in principle, is that abolishing private property makes everything public property (i.e. government owned) unless you go all the way to anarchy (i.e. it's yours if you can guard it sufficiently). Some people may be comfortable with the idea of a bureaucrat or directorate controlling access to all goods, but I'm certainly not. If you know of some way of deciding who gets to use a particular chunk of stuff that doesn't lie somewhere between individual ownership and utter dictatorship (leader owns everything), please share it with us :-)
No Subject Given
by Andy Bakun ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:01AM
(User Info)
Both Communist and Capitalist ideals were conceived as an attempt to better manage limited _physical_ resources. Both kind of break down with service oriented resources, but perhaps the open software and IP resources under an information ecomony don't fit well into either model. Maybe another economic model must be created to manage the resources of a largely information based economy. This could be why neither of the traditional models fit these new methods of doing business.
Re: Terminology
by Laurent Szyster ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:01AM
(User Info)

Unbelievable ....

I am glad to see this article, because Open Source is often incorrectly associated with collectivism (which scares people).
Collectivism only scares the few millionaires and a minority of would-be "bourgeois". Out of the six billions of us on earth, five don't have any private property at all, only debts!

Pah! You're all wrong!
by Matthew Bassett ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:05AM
(User Info)

In the strong tradition of INTERNET based discussions, especially USENET News, let just put my entirely unqualified 2 peneth worth here: You're all wrong!

Now let me break with tradition and qualify that a bit:

People will more or less find whatever doctrine they want out of Open Source initiatives, especially in it's strongest and most powerful manifestation: the GPL.

Hey! Communism!: everyone cooperates in socially luvvie duvvie community.

Hey! Capitalism!: many different pieces of software compete in the market, but the strongest, best 'survives' as monopolies are impossible.

Hey! Libertarianism!: I'm free to do whatever I want to do with this software (so long as I respect everyone elses rights to do the same with it)!

Hey! Marxism!: I'm free to do whatever I want to do with this software (so long as I respect everyone elses rights to do the same with it)!

(Heh, Heh! I've always wanted to point out an area of similarity in those two doctrines!).

I could suggest that Open Source initiatives represent a "Societal Singularity": the rules we use to recognise social structures don't really apply to it.

Let me suggest my own 'scheme' for what open source software gives us: Darwinism! Natural Selection! Evolution!

The software generated are our lifeforms, we, the users and developers are the environment in which they live, and also the cause of their mutations. The life forms (software) with the most beneficial mutations (modifications) become the strongest and outcompete the others for a share of the environment, but the losers in this natural selection will almost always find a niche (command line masochists) in which to dwell, and there are specialised environments (science and engineering) in which only certain forms of life form (EDA software, Algebriac software) can survive.

Of course all the above is complete hockum, since our programs don't mutate randomly, but then so has much of the discussion on this thread been hockum.

Cheers!

Matthew.
Re: but...
by C R Johnson ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:05AM
(User Info) pw2.netcom.com/~iamcliff/
> The goal of the open source movement is to
> produce good software for the people.

Says who?

There is no "The" goal, just the individual goals
of everyone who writes and uses free software.

There is a free market in goals as well.

crj
Re: No Subject Given
by Peter Kovacs ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:09AM
(User Info)
Almost. It's not *physical* resources, but *scarce* resources. In the case of IP that often falls into time, bandwidth, and man power. The model still works perfectly fine with maybe a minor revision or two because of the very low marginal cost (duplication and distribution).
Billionaires
by Case Roole ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:13AM
(User Info) http://billwatch.net/
William Gates' wealth is equivalent to the accumulated wealth of the poorest 40% of the population of the United States.

The accumulated wealth of the world's 358 billionaires is equivalent to the accumulated wealth of the poorest 3 billion people on earth.

-cjr
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:18AM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/
So, anyone can take the source, modify it, and not release the source. But reverse engineering is 100% legal, and no action can be taken against employees who leak the source code (since there is no such thing as IP in this world, they aren't breaking any laws).

Do you really think this scenario is a problem for free software?

But it is, in any event, a simple fact that the creators of the GPL advocate the abolition of intellectual "property". I think they've probably devoted more thought to the issue than I have.

Danny.

GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Jeffrey Davis ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:26AM
(User Info)
Hard to know how to respond to this without writing a 50k essay. In any case, I think there's some unintentional sleight of hand here.

GPLed code is NOT private property. The GPL is a wise technique for protecting the code from falling into private ownership. To repeat: anyone can use GPL code for their own purposes *without paying or seeking the permission of its "owners"*. Capiche? There's not much around these days that isn't private property. Think of the air or the oceans. Anyone can use them for their own purposes, within the limits of a few restrictions. Just like GPL.

Consider why some people object to private property. Let's say I'm rich (:)). I'm owner of a software company (not a good idea to be sole owner of something -- that's why there are stocks -- but it simplifies this example), and my capital goes to pay a salary to a programmer (buy his/her time). The programmer writes a program. Now I own it. Not the programmer. Me. Sure, the programmer may have entered into the bargain with some degree of voluntariness -- but that's not such a great consolation in the end, is it?

GPL gets around this problem by treating the source as a free resource. The return of the commons, so to speak. Capitalism, in order to become dominant, you may recall, had to begin by effectively eliminating the commons; called 'enclosure'. I can't own the product of your (GPLed) labor by virtue of having a lot of money. I _can_ do that with shoes.

Hope this incomplete reply sheds some light on the matter.
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by Sven LUTHER ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:27AM
(User Info)
> I'm not really sure what you mean by 'social
> standards', but I can't think of any
> meaning that could be associated with those
> words AND be considered a 'pressing problem'.

ever lived in a third world country ?

one part of social standards is not letting peoples die of not having enough food or medical assistance. It happens all arround the world all the time (something like 1 person/3min or the like).

Yes i know this people ahave surely never seen a computer and are thus irrelevant to Open/Free software, but still ...
YEP.
by Markus Fleck (aka Python) ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:29AM
(User Info) http://cscw.net/pinn/
I agree with you. BTW, I said that (or tried to say so :) above. Your way to put it is more convincing, though - and more fun. :)
Right On.
by C. Bennett ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:31AM
(User Info)
Well put. Paradoxically, the GPL depends heavily on western concepts of intellectual property ownership to support our right to give away our source code. The GNU and Linux projects could not have even gotten off the ground in a state with centralized economic planning for two reasons:

1) all labor belongs to the state - how dare you be working on something that wasn't assigned to you by a Deputy of the People?

2) the Free Software and Open Source movements have depended on free and open communications - something that even some western democracies have a lot of trouble with.

As for individual property rights - I see it this way: I was as Red as they come when I had no property. After busting my tail for 15 years to get some, I understand where Libertarians come from.
Re: Communism in practice
by Fred on Monday August 24, @10:34AM
(User Info)
Your last sentence needs to be addressed really:

Your theoretical communism might be good for something, but it is unfortunately completely unrealistic, or it would have happened in at least. _one_ communistic state.

First, other forms of communism were never given a chance really. Remember the reform movements in say, former Czechoslovakia? The former USSR made sure they were halted almost immediately, by force. I don't think you can argue that "theoretical communism" is unrealistic because it never happened in a single state - you are forgetting that it never was _allowed_ to happen.

Second, communism (in the Marxist sense, as referred to by the original comment) is global; if communism is going to happen, it's going to happen all over the world. A single state does not matter. (This changed with Leninism.)
Copyright/Copyleft
by Face ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:34AM
(User Info)
Your argument about Open Source depending on private property rights is only true so long as private property rights exist. This specific copyright is frequently called a copyleft because it works to void private property rights and allow a collective/group of people to work on a single source without openly, freely, without restriction...
Also calling yourself a staunch capitalist doesnt sit well with me, and I sure hope others agree. I have read a million times why capitalism frequently does NOT promote progress. I know you have reasons why it does but why release the latest and greatest product when you could release all three generations of slightly better products and make three times as much money. Why fix the last few bugs in your video card when it will only survive the market for a year anyway.
I think we should have a slashdot poll.
Capitalist/Socialist/...
Software is not an idea (was: not all libertarians
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:39AM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Software is the product of applying effort over time, effort focused by thought, knowledge, and experience. Making software is work, and the outcome is a real product, not an "idea".

I don't care for software patents and look-and-feel legal games, but, dammit, the time I spend writing software could be spent doing other things. I demand that the investment I make in time and effort on software be as protected as the time and effort I put into fixing up my house.

I interpret claims that "software isn't real property" to be claims that I should give my time away for free, that someone else should dictate what I do, when, and for what outcome. Sorry, no.

Re: but...
by Chad Cunningham ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:40AM
(User Info)
You raise an interesting point. However, I don't think I understand your definition of value. I can agree with your statement that goods and services are exchanged to create the greatest increase in value. Absolutely. However, this statement is only true if the value we speak of is the value of the product. If the exchange satisfies you, that in no way increases the value of the product. It may increase it's value to you, but not to anyone else. There's a big difference between personal value, and the actual value of the product.

For example, let's say I started a car company, and all of the cars I produced I gave away absolutely free. While the exchange may leave me satisfied knowing that people are using my product, my stockholders probably won't agree with this value. My competitors won't agree. From my standpoint, the product has increased in value, but for others, it has not. Who is correct?

I think it is meaningless to assign personal values to products in a capitalist system.
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:45AM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/
I don't see the strawman... it is not impossible for IP to be abolished this year (though it is far more likely to be whittled away slowly), and the fact that IP played a role in previous history is just irrelevant.

Free software creation and distribution is not dependent in any fundamental way on intellectual property rights. The original essay basically just asserted that it was... someone else has responded explaining why GPLed software is not private property in any sense of the term - and that's really the crux of the matter.

As for your comments on communism... I never used the word. (If it matters at all, the political position I find most attractive is probably classical anarchism - and I think you have some learning to do if you think that means "it's yours if you can guard it sufficiently".)

Danny.

Re: Communism
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:45AM
(User Info)
The problem with communism is the human factor. Communism is a great idea, but the thing it does not consider is the personal greed of mankind. There is too much tendency for abuse of power and personal achievement for communism to ever work.
Free Software
by ir ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:46AM
(User Info) http://www.pobox.com/~mattc
When someone else makes that choice for you it is called slavery,

Interesting comment coming from a capitalist.. So when my boss says "do that" I am a slave, eh? You're basically defining capitalism as wage slavery.. not a very good start on an essay that is supposed to defend capitalism.

and so they naturally have the right to decide how they will deploy their creation (otherwise, why should they bother to create it in the first place?

For the good of humanity, maybe? I thought you just got done saying that you were against force.. now you are saying that force is okay as long as it is used in the way you prefer.. in this case, intellectual property.

Capitalism is a social system which respects and defends peoples' individual human rights, including the right to property.

No, Government is the social system which defends rights. Capitalism is an economic system, which will become "the one with the biggest gun makes the rules" if left to go unchecked-- this is the danger of the so-called "laissez-faire capitalism." You can already see the overwhelming power that corporations have over the government today. Just imagine what it would be like if the libertarians took over :( Can you say "Bill Gates for president" ?

capitalism means cooperation

Tell this to microsoft.

in a true capitalist system everybody would simply laugh at someone trying to use the heavy hand of government to some economic advantage

Like defending the aforementioned intellectual property laws??

Banning fraud and the initiation of force in our dealings with one another, and respecting people and their choices as individuals by protecting their property rights...

Doesn't protecting property rights involve force??? If someone tries to pave a parking lot on your backyard, can't you force them off? It is not a right if there is no one to defend it!

As a "staunch capitalist" you should keep in mind that it is none other than good old "big brother" that defends your precious property.

Re: amusing
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:46AM
(User Info)
Socialism - n. 1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods; 2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state; 3: a stage in society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done source: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va;=socialism

Let's examine this definition. The first part asserts that Socialism advocates the governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. I think it's safe to agree that all Open Source advocates would disagree with this, so socialism does not apply according to this definition.

Moving on to the next definition, we see that socialism asserts the fact that there is no private property, and that included intellectual property. This may appear to appeal to Open Source (hereafter called OS) advocates, but let's take a look at the GPL which is supposed to be so communistic. From the preamble, we have this: "We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software." This indicates that the GPL is to be used to provide a copyright for you on your software as well as to provide for others to freely copy, distribute, and modify the software. Again from the preamble, we have "Also, for each author's protection and ours, we want to make certain that everyone understands that there is no warranty for this free software. If the software is modified by someone else and passed on, we want its recipients to know that what they have is not the original, so that any problems introduced by others will not reflect on the original authors' reputations." This statement assures us that if our code is modified, the recipients of the modified code MUST be informed that they don't have your original, but their modified version. Sections 1 and 2 of the license guarantee the protection of the code that we write from illegal modification in that if the code is modified and you DON'T post "prominent notices" stating that you changed the code and when, then you have violated the license. These provisions indicate that you have the right to claim your code as intellectual property, but as released under the GPL, you agree not to charge for it. Interesting, so the GPL does seem to support private property.

Finally, the third definition indicates that socialism is a transitional state between capitalism and marxim, and is not pure marxism because the monetary wealth is distributed unequally, as in those who do more work have more monetary wealth.

Now, let's look at capitalism. Capitalism - n: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market source: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va;=socialism

Notice that nowhere in the definition of capitalism does it mention anything but the freedom of the creators of goods (including OS programs) to determine the distribution of their goods. The GPL is one way for the creators of their goods to provide for their goods to be unrestricted in their use, copying, and/or modification provided that the original author(s) receive their due credit and any modifications be prominently noted. The GPL is one distribution mechanism which is available for capitalists, and is a very valid one. However, as is oft claimed, it is NOT communistic nor is it socialistic.

I hate to throw the dictionary out there, but since we are questioning the applicability of capitalism to OS, and claiming that socialism is more closely related to OS, we need to examine that assertion. This example has shown that the GPL as it is currently on the www.gnu.org website as of 10:27am on 24 August, 1998 is inherently incompatible with socialism, but more with the concept of capitalism as described by the author who we are all commenting on as well as my reply to the previous comment as well.
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:49AM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Generally those people don't live in capitalist countries.

In any case, modern famine isn't an economic problem; it's a political problem. Name a famine in this century that was not caused by political forces or for which relief was just not available.
Excellent
by Rene S. Hollan ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:50AM
(User Info)
An excellent article, even though it borrows heavily from classic libertarian writings without (IMHO) giving sufficient credit.

The responses denouncing it as an attempt to fit Open Source development in some "evil" capitalist propaganda are to be expected, of course, as few apparantly think of capitalism as anything other than a political system where money buys power. I submit that this reflect a general ignorance of the roots of laissez-faire capitalism and libertarianism in particular.

It is PRECISELY because we do NOT (yet) have government interferance in the production of software that a free market in it's production has arisen. Many of those that write Open Source software do so for very selfish reasons: they have a problem to solve. When a large number of others have the same or a similar problem to solve, cooperation benefits all and the net effort becomes greater than the sum of its parts. It's a matter of "I'll write this code to solve this part of a problem, if someone will help with those parts", or, more likely, "I've ALREADY written this part, who wants to help with the rest". As ESR pointed out, there is very much a trade going on within the Open Source community, with the medium of exchange being software and prestige, not currency. It is as free a market as it can be.

Lest any think that it is not a market because the medium of exchange is not currency, consider this: currency is only a convenient measure of the toil and sweat of production, a side-effect of a market system. Software and prestige are equally legitimate as currencies in the Open Source market. ESR has made this point very clear, I think.

Now, consider the communist and "American" (as opposed to capitalist, which the American economic system certainly isn't) alternatives:

Under communism the needs of others will drive the enforced exploitment of the abilities of some. Contrary to how some might interpret Marx, one has little choice of whether to apply one's abilities or not [e.g. the former U.S.S.R.] To not produce the code the government deems "necessary" would make one a "capitalist pig".

Under "Americanism", money would be used to lobby for strict controls on the production of software so that the market would be controlled by the few. It is not much of a stretch to argue that bad software can cause financial losses, equipment to go amok, and even lives to be lost. Its production, then, can't be left to "just anyone". If you're not free to give your code away, or license it under GPL, you're at the mercy of whatever those who are licensed to produce it "legally" chose to charge for it.

Governments license doctors. Left unchecked, they will soon license programmers.

Currently, the production of Open Source software is driven by pure need -- the need to see a problem solved in an autonomous fashion by a machine. This is about as pure a market as one can get. In fact, all markets pretty much started out that way, without government control (the American [government] way is to restrict and license, the communist way is to demand).

Libertarianism is the ONLY political and economic system where individuals can CHOOSE to produce code "for free" (or not to, as the case may be). It is the only system where the Open Source idea can survive for any significant length of time without being perverted by government intervention.

Regards,

Rene

P.S. Yes, I am familiar with the harsh, perhaps obnoxious, nature of Ayn Rand's writing style. Those put off of libertarian ideas because of her style would do well to read other works such as The Libertarian Manifest, by Murray; The Libertarian Idea, by Narveson; and Anarchy, State, and Utopia, by Nozick.
Re: GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:51AM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
If a GPL'd piece of software isn't owned, how can anyone enforce the license?

It's been said again and again -- GPL'd software is not in the public domain. Therefore, it is someone's property.

HTH. HAND.
Re: Communism in practice
by Tsk ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:51AM
(User Info) http://www.mygale.org/~softkid/
unrealistic, or it would have happened in at least _one_ communistic state.
I think Cuba could have achieved this if the US gov, haden't mess with hem (In the Beginning Castro didn't wan't to use USSR's Help, but he was forced to by cia & co.
Re: Economic Theory
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:52AM
(User Info)
But, where's the incentive for the open shop? The closed shop has a desire to make a good product to make money. The open shop does it because the want to, or they see a need for it. While this is a noble cause, it does not put food on the table. We need money to live, which also means that the open shop must do something else to support themselves. This means there is less time to devote to the development.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way trying to say that open source software can't be of high quailty. But, the tendency is for the commercial software to win out because for most people, money is a very important incentive.

Now, granted, there could be a rouge collectivist society out there that grows their own food, lives independant of society, and writes code on donated machines. But I haven't seen one yet...
The Miracle of Stupidity
by ewjc ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:52AM
(User Info)
When Einstein derived the special (and later the general version of) relativity, philosophers and priests tried their best to get an interpretation within their realms.

I always find it amusing how people use a well-established fact or theory to "plug-n-play" into their thinking.

The miracle of stupidity played in the 19-century ether interpretation of the universe, in the relativity theory, in Turing machines and Incompleteness Theorem, in the gene-DNA genre. Now it's time to plug the same stupidity into the Linux movement. Everybody wants to "USE" Linux to enhance personal belief or further political agenda.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Re: but...
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:53AM
(User Info)
Me, as the creator of the product and you, as the consumer are the only two people concerned with the value of the product. What external value associated (monetary or otherwise) associated with it is an accident and of no consequence unless I decide to use that in my determination of value. When the two parties who are involved in the transaction are satisfied with the transaction, then the value has increased.

Hearkening to your car example, would not my stockholders agree with my decision to give away a car to, say, Michael Jordan or some other very public figure, in the hopes that him or her driving it around would inspire others to "Be Like Mike" and buy my car? Again, the only people who are concerned with the value of any given transaction are the two parties directly involved with the transaction. Unfortunately, I am at work and do not have handy the information I need to elucidate my point in full. However, when I am at home, I can find the exact wording and definition that may make my points more clear.
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Lemming ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:59AM
(User Info)
>This is a real long-hop. Just what, pray tell,
>would stop people writing software and sharing
>it with one another in a world without private
>property?

Ownership by force.

Once you have no ownership rights enforced
by the biggest power around (the government),
those with the biggest stick lay claim to
anything they can.

At this point you have lost control of your
software. The choice to share is no longer
yours.

Re: To Borrow an idea from Ayn Rand
by ir ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:01AM
(User Info) http://www.pobox.com/~mattc
Believe it or not, some people write software for reasons other than egomaniacal social masturbation.
Re: Bla bla bla...
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:03AM
(User Info)
And "staunch capitalism" has still to prove that it will be helpful in solving the world's most pressing problems, like the protection of nature, global peace, and social standards.
Capitalism is about using the resources (land) you have in a manner that most increases its value (not necessarily monetary value, mind you). To do ensure that, it is necessary for the user of the land to own that land. Now, since the land itself is an asset of the owner, they will do EVERYTHING they can to prevent its decline in value (again, not necessarily monetary value). This includes preventing the pollution and destruction of the land, hence protecting the environment. Private ownership of property is the best way to protect the environment and still remain a free country.

Global peace. That is hardly an economic problem. It is a problem of the governments of the world and our inability to overcome the dividing factors of race, creed, and ethnic heritage.
Re: Terminology
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:07AM
(User Info)
Collectivism scares all of us who want to have the freedom to determine our own courses in life. Those of us with debt have taken on that debt of our own free will. I am in that group, but I still want the freedom do determine my own course in life. Collectivism denies us that right.
Back-asswards!
by Christopher Palmer ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:07AM
(User Info) http://acm.cs.umn.edu/~jaymz/sigfs/

The free/open source software movement is in fact fundamentally incompatible with capitalism (although not necessarily with free markets, per se).

OSS is a gift-based economy -- the goal is to give away as much value as possible, because giving is good in itself. This depends essentially upon the abolition of private (and in this case, intellectual) property.

Capitalism, on the other hand, is a take-based economy -- get as much power and wealth for yourself as possible, because they are in themselves good. Since resources are limited, taking as much for yourself as is possible necessarily means depriving someone else. Too bad for them -- it's their fault they didn't read Atlas Shrugged, right?

Another fallacy is that capitalism leads naturally to the best products, distributed in the best way. This is just plain wrong -- Microsoft is a great example. Remember that getting loads of cash is the sole goal. The best way to acquire disgusting heaps of cash is to minimize your costs and maximize your returns.

Quality costs.

Microsoft products are only as good as they need to be, not the best they could be. Ideal quality costs a lot, which would mean fewer billions for Bill, which would mean that he succeeds somewhat less well at the game of capitalism.

The way to maximize returns is to eliminate the competition (in the case of MS, through unethical business practices). This also has the "good" effect of feeding back into the quality (=cost) reduction plan, as well (consumers have to take what they are given, since there are no alternative producers).

The apotheosis of a take economy is Bill Gates having all the wealth in the world, and everyone else dead from starvation. The apotheosis of a gift economy is everyone enjoying kick-ass software, and sending thank-you notes and bug-fixes to Richard Stallman.

In a gift economy, Ayn Rand couldn't, err...give away copies of her books. :)

Re: Looks more like anarchy to me
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:07AM
(User Info)
Absolutely, and that fact, while suprisingly lacking in this discourse, was infact obvious to our wonderful pals down at O'Reilly publishing, where the Linux series is draped in a wild west motif, for those of you who haven't seen. this is infact not random at all.

First off, as several have noted, the base line requirement for any thing that can be called a society let alone a civilization is some degree of cooperation. Guess what, we can't do everything alone. Capitalism is only a socail construct insofar as it is and economic one, based on and replicatied by the ideologies that form it.
here is the point w/ open source. insofar as economic enitities are descriped and quanitified in economic terms (ie: dollar$) Open Source is no particularly significant factor, at this time. It's significance lies in it's existantance as a medial form. In this aspect it is in many ways a significant first. The evolutionary growth it exibits has only really existed in the world of the arts before, and by this i mean the traditional fine arts. There it is customary and even nessisary to build on, comment on, and just genrally work within the context of art or those aspects of life which can be called muses. open source projects evolve and in a sence live via the same type of interactions. those who code open source dynmically change and evolve the context of all other open soucre projects. this is obviously only possibly via the internet. i ramble. for anyone who has expolred the ideas of anarcism beyond the concept of a gun toting free for all, these are the principales that anarchism relies on for it'd success. and natual eveolution of thought and culture, and society as a whole. as new media make posible new forms and types of commutication we see new types of meeting places for the complex and vital exchange of ideas. the point behind open source and it's most anarchistic quaility is simply that it shuns power. Here is an obvious display of productive interacions without a central power mediating and ruling the discourse. Each other pol/soc/economic sytem depends on inherintly and is infact a guide line or discource on the distribution and use of power. Here we prosper persisely because there is none.
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by Sven LUTHER ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:09AM
(User Info)
> Generally those people don't live in capitalist countries.

come on, we live in global world today, and the world economy is mainly capitalist, even in russia or china today.

also there is lots of countries where rich people live beside very poor ones. And where is your motherboard or memory made ?
Re: No Subject Given
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:10AM
(User Info)
But in so doing they are REQUIRED to prominently note the changes and they cannot be attributed to the original author protecting the original author from direct association with the modifications. Yes, people can modify the work, but if it is in conflict with the author's intent, he or she can simply say that fact, and denounce the other product, but cannot take away the right of the modifier to maintain that modified product. This prevents a modifier from modifying a product and then forcing the original writer to take credit for the modifications if he or she doesn't want to.
Critiques of Libertarianism
by Aaron M. Renn ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:12AM
(User Info) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
Libertarianism is an attractive political philosophy, but has a number of holes in it that many libertarians don't take time to properly address. For a look at some of these holes, see Mike Huben's Critiques of Libertarianism page at:

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

You might especially be interested in A Non-Libertarian FAQ, which is at:

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:14AM
(User Info)
I'll drink to that.
Re: GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:14AM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/
Only in some totally formalistic sense can GPLed software be considered "property". (Or in a world-view where everything has to be owned by someone.)

No one can prevent anyone else using, ditributing, or modifying GPLed software. If it quacks like a duck...

Is it not possible to GPL a piece of code without attaching one's name to it? And if I GPL code and then die, who owns the code then? My estate? What happens if I die without heirs? Is the code then in the public domain and outside the protection of the GPL?

Danny.

Re: GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Jeffrey Davis ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:16AM
(User Info)
It's a question that escapes our usual categories, I agree. But I think there's no question that between public domain and private property, GPL is neither. Are commons public domain? No. They are 'owned' (if that's the word for it) by the community, and protected by the laws of the community. I don't think that's quite the same as government ownership either, insofar as a government is a entity representing, but not identical to, a community. If this sounds mushy headed, it's only because it doesn't conform to our contemporary categories.
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @11:16AM
(User Info)
The FSF may advocate the abolition of Intellectual Property laws now (They hate the term "Intellectual Property" BTW), but when people start using the formally GPL'ed software in ways the FSF never intended, I.E. Changing it, and not releasing the source for their changes, etc. I think they will be quickly change their mind.

The problem with the type of philosophy that the FSF adhears too is that it makes the assumption
that humans are predisposed to do the right thing.
Which is definatly not the case.

As an example. I have read an interview with RMS
where he bragged how the FSF used no passwords, because he believed that passwords were a bad thing. However, they had to change their policy when someone logged into their system and deleted files or something.

Passwords are a necessary evil as are I.P. laws, because all humans simply cannot be trusted.
Re: Wrong Capitalism definition
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:20AM
(User Info)
Not to pick nits, but here we go:

Capitalism is the ability to have private property and use it how you wish (not a complete definition, by the way). However, exclusive ownership of the means of production is not a requirement in a capitalist system. In a capitalist system, you can still choose not to maintain exclusive rights to a means of production. You may allow anyone access to that means for no fee provided that they don't agree to your terms. The GPL is just that. Your terms of agreement to which users of your means of production must comply. Because you set the original terms by applying the GPL, you are still the owner of the means, however, you have chosen to make it nonexclusive ownership. Capitalism is about giving the owners of property freedom to determine its use, and not to restrict the owners of the property by an external means.
Re: Stallman and the GPL
by Aaron M. Renn ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:22AM
(User Info) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
I don't think that the FSF is necessarily opposed to copyrights. They are specifically opposed to copyrights on software. Softaware is unlike an essay which expresses my views on a subject (like this one) or a work of art which is meant to be enjoyed, or a television broadcast of a baseball game. Software is meant to be used for a practical purpose. When someone uses copyright to keep you from using the product as you desire, this results in harm to you and to all of society which is prohibited from making modifications, etc. Thus applying a legal doctrine (copyright) developed for book publishing to software is not necessarily a good thing. It does not mean that copyright in general is horrible.
Comments!
by Michael Bacarella ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:23AM
(User Info)
I'm rather annoyed at how brutally people
criticize those that take the time to write
these editorials.

I thought he was rather respectful, and while
I'm not going to agree, I appreciate the time
he took to write it. It's hard to forget that
a human being wrote that and is probably scanning
the comments eagerly waiting to see what people
have to say.


The arguement that a bond between Open Source and
Capitalism can certainly exist, provided you
specify which Open Source model you use.
According to the GNU model, software has no
owners. The entire problem with the "popular"
model in the Capitalist world is if your software
is owned by someone else, they can control what
happens to software in your posession even if
you've already paid for it.

That's probably not what you meant, as I got the
hint you were more along the lines of saying
what people the original author will accept
contributions from. Understand, the original
author's wishes is respected out of courtesy.
We do not always let the author decide what is
best. If someone wrote fabulous source and is
putting it to bad use, we'll rip the source away
and do what we see best with it. This is almost
always avoided as it creates conflict and
undermines the idea of "cooperation", we still
have that option at our disposal. This is a
license that exists "For the Good of the People"
and only that.

The entire point of The GNU Project is to
make software as free as the air we breathe.
Software can be used and reused like water and
mud and stone to build Cathedrals. If someone
controlled water and stone, we'd be at a
disadvantage.

Perhaps you weren't operating with the GNU
General Public License in mind, but make no
doubts about it, it is the ultimate definition
of Open Source that all other licenses are pale
shadows of in terms of user freedom. When people
hint that Open Source is Communitarianist, they're
probably referring to the GNU (L)GPL, since
we all know that the 'newer' Open Source models
were created to make the idea easier to digest
by Capitalist entities.


--Michael Bacarella
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Aaron M. Renn ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:28AM
(User Info) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
Ah, so your rationale is fundamentally a selfish one. I'm glad you at least admit it.

I should point out that a house is radically different from software. Your house is a singular object. If you live there, then no one else can live there. If you fix it up, then someone else moves in against your will and displaces you, then you have been harmed. On the other hand, if someone walking down the street could simply see your nice house and say "Wow, I like that", snap his fingers, and instantly have a copy of your house on his lot, you are not harmed in any way. You are still free to enjoy the fruits of your labor (your fixed up house), but others get to enjoy it to at no cost to you.

BTW: After fixing up your house, do you think that you have property rights in its appearance? If you plant flowers around the front, should everyone else be prohibited from planting the same arrangement in front of their house? Should people have to pay you a royalty to use your color scheme? After all, your fixed up house is the product of your hard work. Shouldn't others have to pay you for the privilege of taking your ideas?
Re: Looks more like anarchy to me
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:31AM
(User Info)
Ermmm...well, take another look. First of all, Economics is NOT about money. Economics is about the trade of scarce resources. Money is the primary method of determining value in the modern culture, but that is not the only one. For example, when you give a gift to someone, you are only concerned with if they enjoy the gift. If the gift is a $2 doll or a $1500 computer, it doesn't matter. If the child wanted a doll and got a $1500 computer, then the child would not be happy, and neither would you. The value (not necessarily monetary) has decreased. However, if the child wanted a doll and you gave it the $2 doll, then both you and the child are happy, and the value has increased. This is economics. Capitalism, Socialism, and others are economic systems and are not concerned with the distribution of power, but rather scarce resources. Anarchy, Republicanism, Democracy, Monarchy, and others are political systems and are concerned with the distribution of power, not scarce resources. Communism transcends this boundary in that it is a political and an economic system. Please don't confuse Capitalism and Socialism with political systems. You can have a capitalistic system within a monarchy as well as a democracy or a republic.
is media not money
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:33AM
(User Info)
"Lest any think that it is not a market because the medium of exchange is not currency, consider this: currency is only a convenient measure of the toil and sweat of production, a side-effect of a market system. Software and prestige are equally legitimate as currencies in the Open Source market. " if you feel the to veiw everything through the tired and out dated model of econmic theory. i mean is love and affection the currency in the market relationship between two people.

"
Post Comment Excellent
by Rene S. Hollan on Monday August 24, @10:50

An excellent article, even though it borrows heavily from classic libertarian writings without (IMHO) giving sufficient credit.

The responses denouncing it as an attempt to fit Open Source development in some "evil" capitalist propaganda are to be expected, of course, as few apparantly think of capitalism as anything other than a political system where money buys power. I submit that this reflect a general ignorance of the roots of laissez-faire capitalism and libertarianism in particular.

It is PRECISELY because we do NOT (yet) have government interferance in the production of software that a free market in it's production has arisen. Many of those that write Open Source software do so for very selfish reasons: they have a problem to solve. When a large number of others have the same or a similar problem to solve, cooperation benefits all and the net effort becomes greater than the sum of its parts. It's a matter of "I'll write this code to solve this part of a problem, if someone will help with those parts", or, more likely, "I've ALREADY written this part, who wants to help with the rest". As ESR pointed out, there is very much a trade going on within the Open Source community, with the medium of exchange being software and prestige, not currency. It is as free a market as it can be.

Lest any think that it is not a market because the medium of exchange is not currency, consider this: currency is only a convenient measure of the toil and sweat of production, a side-effect of a market system. Software and prestige are equally legitimate as currencies in the Open Source market. ESR has made this point very clear, I think.

Now, consider the communist and "American" (as opposed to capitalist, which the American economic system certainly isn't) alternatives:

Under communism the needs of others will drive the enforced exploitment of the abilities of some. Contrary to how some might interpret Marx, one has little choice of whether to apply one's abilities or not [e.g. the former U.S.S.R.] To not produce the code the government deems "necessary" would make one a "capitalist pig".

Under "Americanism", money would be used to lobby for strict controls on the production of software so that the market would be controlled by the few. It is not much of a stretch to argue that bad software can cause financial losses, equipment to go amok, and even lives to be lost. Its production, then, can't be left to "just anyone". If you're not free to give your code away, or license it under GPL, you're at the mercy of whatever those who are licensed to produce it "legally" chose to charge for it.

Governments license doctors. Left unchecked, they will soon license programmers.

Currently, the production of Open Source software is driven by pure need -- the need to see a problem solved in an autonomous fashion by a machine. This is about as pure a market as one can get. In fact, all markets pretty much started out that way, without government control (the American [government] way is to restrict and license, the communist way is to demand).

"Libertarianism is the ONLY political and economic system where individuals can CHOOSE to produce code.." only if you assume the need for a system to begin with. besides open source is an international effort contributed to by people who live under a variety of differant levels of tyranny. and besides america if a far cry from a libertarian system, and we are apperantly producing free code. Open source is a medial phenomonon that exists in a realm on level removed from economics and state politics. it occurs not out of market forces and the exchange of prestige, but out of the availiblity of communication (media) which give access to unpresidented data interaction and exchange without the presence of a specific ruling power or governing system. the fact is that open source can result in any system (givin acess) in so far as the media in which it exists is removed from said system.
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Kevin Donnelly ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:33AM
(User Info)
Humans certainly are not predisposed to evil either, the problem is not human nature, but our society in which acquired wealth is the gauge of success.
Re: To Borrow an idea from Ayn Rand
by Aaron M. Renn ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:36AM
(User Info) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
I believe Ayn Rand liked to distinguish between what she called "egoism" and what is popularly known as "egotism".

The Objectist philosophy (and its focus on egoism and looking out for yourself first) is based on incorrect premises. One of them is that in nature, all organisms try to assure their own continued existence, thus that is that natural order of things and how humans should behave. Since nature does not have the concept of self-sacrifice, humans should not adopt the practice as a moral goal. (Someone more intimately familiar with Objectivism can correct or clarify my arguments, but I am fairly confident that the idea of the natural law of self preservation is a fundamental assumption of Objectivism).

But living things do not live to assure their own existence. Most biologist now believe that organism exist to maximize the chances of their DNA being propagated to future generations. This is a type of self sacrifice, and I think undermines Objectivism quite a bit. I need to read some more updated material on that philosophy in order to see how they address the question, but Rand was clearly wrong here.
Re: Back-asswards!
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:37AM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Wow. What a load of ignorant tripe.

Capitalism is a system of free markets involving the exchange of capital. If I want something, I give the person who has it some capital in exchange for that thing. Somebody else wants some work done that I can do, they give me capital in exchange for the labor. If somebody wants to start a company, or expand a company, they sell shares of that company's profits to investors to raise the capital.

Capitalism in your terms is "give and take".

Monopolies are bad for real capitalism. They distort the market and inhibit open competition. There are a lot of people (like me) who are completely convinced that free market capitalism is the Best Way, and that Microsoft is a Bad Thing.


pre-coffee aimless ramblings
by Phil DeBecker ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:45AM
(User Info)
I too am both a staunch capitalist and an advocate of open source. I've often struggled to reconcile the two, since at first glance the principles of open source and those of capitalism seem completely at odds with each other. I was hoping this article would shed some sort of light on this; unfortunately I don't find this article in any way convincing. For example:

Further, capitalism is epitomized by cooperation, not by competition -- competition arises in the context of several participants trying to out-cooperate each other in a division-of-labor economy.

Buzz! Wrong! And the pencil illustration is no picnic either. Each pencil is the product of intense competition at all levels. The graphite suppliers compete to sell the most graphite to the pencil factory; the trucking companies compete against one another to supply transportation to the graphite mine; the stores compete to sell you the pencil. To the extent that it is necessary, cooperation exists between the levels; however, the cooperative relationship between the levels (ie the supplier and the factory) is only as strong as the ability of the supplier to keep prices down.

But I digress. Suffice to say that I agree with the sentiment but not the argument. I think most of this article is a great big non-sequitur as far as the real issue of open source and capitalism. In light of that, here's my quick take on why they can work together:

1) For starters, open source simply delivers the better product. Software which is intensely peer-reviewed by a large audience will always be better than software developed in a closed shop. I take this as axiomatic; proof is left to the reader as an exercise.

2) Open source software is, well, cheap. This is obviously going to do well with capitalists trying to keep costs down.

3) I'm not even going to go into price/performance ratios... Though doing the math tends to expose bugs in certain closed-source OSs.

The above points tend to argue for using open source software. Oddly, though, they also argue for developing it:

4) Lowered development costs, to a point. Developers are not cheap; however, testing and the like are not cheap either, and those expenses are cut down significantly by open sourcing software. Also, software does not run in a vacuum. Developing on more stable, open OSs is easier in that the OS tends to work better and if all else fails you can fix problems yourself.

Now the big problem: how do you pay for those development costs which do remain? The most obvious ways to do this are: value-added reselling and selling support. Value-added reselling could mean you develop a complete system that includes hardware and open source software. This could be an embedded system, or a turnkey server, or a Network Computer, or whatever. Or develop a distribution of an open-source system and sell proprietary software with it. Selling support is fairly self-explanatory, but should not be glossed over. The revenue from many government contracts is composed overwhelmingly of support rather than initial development.

What does this mean overall? Well, it means that open source doesn't pose any real threat to the jobs of most software professionals. If it were to become the dominant paradigm, then some companies whose revenue streams are bloated from selling office suites for $500 would probably have trouble. But in general things will go on being just as capitalistic as before, save that software will work better and cost nothing.

Now for that coffee...
NOPE
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:47AM
(User Info)
Again, please don't confuse political systems with economic systems. Of the list provided, only Communism and Capitalism fit. Libertarianism is a political system, and communism is Marxism. The communist manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels. For the text of it, see: http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

WRT your "darwinism" approach, this is exactly the capitalist model where the most successful products will last because they are the best. Why, after all, is social darwinism so closely associated with capitalism? Any thoughts, people? Correct! Darwinism is evolutionary capitalism -- the freedom of nature to select the species most fit to survive. In a capitalist utopia, you would only have the best products because those are the ones that would survive the market scrutiny.
Think again
by Kenneth L. Hamer ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:49AM
(User Info)
Well, where to begin...

First, a few non-open-source points to make:

Capitalism is not a social system, it's an economic system. There are social systems which tend to go hand-in-hand with capitalism, but capitalism itself is about the flow of capital, that is, resources with which one can do things.

Capitalism does not respect or fail to respect people's individual human rights. Capitalism can possibly function better in an environment where rights are defined by posession of capital, but functions perfectly well in an environment where human rights are rescpected.

Similarly, communism, socialism, etc. are economic systems. You can have a communist totalitatrian state, and socialist republic, or a capitalist democratic state. A whole lot of rhetoric over the past 100 years have confused and conflated these terms.

Pure Capitalist, Socialist, or Communist societies do not exist on the scale of nation-states, folks. Every nation takes some of one, some of the other, and some of the third and uses them where they work best for that nation.

Capitalism is not about cooperation or competition per se, it is about maximizing return on investment. Both cooperation and competition may be useful strategies towards that goal.

That aside, there is no particular reason why Open Source is incompatible with capitalism. If people who invest in an enterprise can get better returns if that enterprise uses or produces Open Source products than if they do not, then Open Source can be extremely successful in a capitalist environment. If that is not feasible, then we might as well forget about industry involvement with Open Source.

On the other hand, Open Source is sort of a natural thing in a system which does not recognize property rights. If there are no property rights, Open Source behavior is pretty much the default. All the fancy licensing we do is meant to bring Open Source into consistency with intellectual property rights.

There are a lot of things out there which are neither 'communist' not 'capitalist', but may see application in both environments.

RMS seems to be a hard-core collectivist, and ESR appears to be a libertarian. Both think Open Source (or Free Software) is the way to go. Why does one or the other have to be wrong? Why does one or the other's reasons have to be wrong?

- Ken

P.S. All that said, I think when it comes to support of the 1-hour-reponse, 24x7x365, on-site in 4 hours type you'll get better results from a capitalist system. Peer repute is all well and good, but I don't think I have ever met someone who wants peer repute that bad. Open Source deems to do well with development and informal support, but I see formal support as the role of industry, and there is a lot of money to be made at it.
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:50AM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Hey, did you read what I wrote? I said I don't like look-and-feel legal games and software patents. I'd personally be flattered (and stunned) if anyone tried to make their house look like mine, and I've certainly borrowed a few ideas from home shows, "This Old House", etc. But I haven't taken anyone's labor for free.

The ease of copying software does not make the resources that went into producing it any smaller. I should be the one who determines the fate of my effort, not somebody else. I should be able to determine the license the software I produced is distributed under, whether it's open or proprietary.
Re: Communism in practice
by The Same Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @11:51AM
(User Info)
I love your reasoning here: "It should have happened in state X. That it didn't is state Y's fault. Therefore it's the same thing as if it would have really happened in state X."

I didn't say anything about whose fault it is that it doesn't work. My point is that it doesn't work, whose fault it is is irrelevant.

As I haven't studied neither Marx nor Lenin (I've only seen the results) I can't comment on your last point.
Re:
by Chris Nelson ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:52AM
(User Info)
heeheehee!
Re: but...
by Jeff Licquia ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:52AM
(User Info) http://www.luci.org/
The fallacy in this is that direct financial gain need not always be the goal.

Ultimately, yes, money is what companies are about. But acting "in the public good" also can translate to money in more indirect ways. Advertising is a classic example of "wasted money" that only shows benefits indirectly.

As always, the question is "how does open source translate into money?" To quote you one answer: Better, more reliable information systems translate into money saved, and open-source systems are generally more reliable. Thus, funding open-source packages that directly affect your business puts money in the bank for you.
Economics is NOT about money
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:52AM
(User Info)
ok, here we go.
economics is a system of abastractions for framing , understanding and speculation on the nature of human interacions, both with each other and with environ. Distribution of resources can and is discussed in many contexts other that economic, it is that economics provides the intellectual framework for the discussion and analysis of theses concepts. Money is the the abstraction used to this end. example:
"If the gift is a $2 doll or a $1500 computer, it doesn't matter. If the child wanted a doll and got a $1500 computer,..."
reguardless of the concept you are trying to get at, the happiness of given child, the intellecual system you are utilizing to discuss the items is econmic. move the doll some where else and the value changes again. not the point. economics is a tool, money is how it opts to discribe things.
"Capitalism, Socialism, and others are economic systems and are not concerned with the distribution of power", seriously rethink that, esp. for socialism. marx is very concerned with the distibution of power and infact looks at the distribution of resources as intricately linked and seriously dependent on the distribution of power. in fact the quanifiable distribution of resources is often used specifically as a measure of the disrtibution of power. ie: 96% of nation X's wealth is held by only 11% of the population, or whatever.
i mean anarchism has got to be the most capitalistic concept in town. i mean no law, there certainly isn't any regulation then. obviously these terms overlap and are not mutually exclusive in many cases. really, they're all ideologies at the end of the day. and open soucre is fueled by an ideological climate that looks a whole hell of a lot like anarchism.
Re: GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:55AM
(User Info)
Actually, it is not possible to GPL something without associating your name with it. From the GPL itself, this is how to use it:

How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs

If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it free software which everyone can redistribute and change under these terms.

To do so, attach the following notices to the program. It is safest to attach them to the start of each source file to most effectively convey the exclusion of warranty; and each file should have at least the "copyright" line and a pointer to where the full notice is found.

one line to give the program's name and an idea of what it does.
Copyright (C) 19yy name of author


GPL assigns copyright of your material to you, protecting the misuse of it, and it also provides for others to copy, modify, and distribute your code and their modifications as long as the obey the terms of the license.
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Noah Clements ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:56AM
(User Info)
Our particular society is but a reflection of generations of our and our ancestors accumulated desires. And fundamental to human nature is the ego. The ego has an innate need to judge all that it comes in contact with (against an internal measure of oneself).

To wit, all readers of this will immediately judge whether this comment is stupid (i.e. less than oneself), or ok.

Humans need a measure of worth. Money is a convenient one. Cattle is one in other cultures. Contacts and power were the measure in Soviet society.

How to escape this? Ahh, that's where millennia of philosophy and religion have not been able to agree, so who knows?
Re: but...
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:57AM
(User Info)
Me, as the creator of the product and you, as the consumer are the only two people concerned with the value of the product.

This is a very simplistic view. How often is one the sole creator of a product? Even if he were, there are still many people who are concerned with the value of the product. In the case of software... What about the person who wrote the compiler? What about the person who created the language? What about the person who designed the computer? Aren't all these people concerned with the value of the products created with their products?

Furthermore, you seem to be reducing an economic system down to a transaction between two people. It is never that simple. Even if a product has no monetary value associated with it, it will still effect the whole of society. For example, if someone writes a good Office suite for computers and gives it away for free, this may cause Microsoft sales to fall, which will reduce stock prices and cause many people to lose money.

True, these may be just consequences of your exchange, but they have an impact on society as a whole which cannot be ignored.

Hearkening to your car example, would not my stockholders agree with my decision to give away a car to, say, Michael Jordan or some other very public figure, in the hopes that him or her driving it around would inspire others to "Be Like Mike" and buy my car?

But, if your transaction makes others want to go purchase a car, doesn't that mean that the transaction increased their value of the product? Obviously, they have a higher value of the car after the transaction since they now want to own one.

Nothing to do with money
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @11:58AM
(User Info)
It's human nature... suppose you could build your
Utopian, happy-slappy, peace-and-harmony, birds-singing, people-dancing, no-war, no-disease,
no-violence, nobody-has-to-work-yet-everybody-has what-they-need, we-don't-use-money-as-our-currency
because-money-is-evil society.

There will still be malcontents who either a) don't feel like they fit in. b) think that they have a better way c) just like violence and misery and will rebel in either productive or destructive ways.

People will never totally agree on anything. Even
the free software movement has had more than its
share of bitter flame wars. I think you would be hard-pressed to say that these flamewars occur because of money.

Capitalism and Communism and Coke and Pepsi
by dave ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:58AM
(User Info)
My favorite anarchist, Bob Black, once said that "Communism and Capitalism are as different as Coke and Pepsi". It seems to me that this author is trying to convince himself and others that the iced mocha that is free software is actually his preferred brand of cola.

Capitalism and communism are both concerned with ideas of property and labor that simply do not apply to free software! Saying that GPL ("I do not own this software I've written, and neither can you") is a capitalist idea is at least as much of an intellectual stretch as saying it is communal property, a communist idea. Neither one really applies. All free software writers should read The Abolition of Work. It's one of the damn few political essays that make any sense in the modern world.

Re: Wrong Capitalism definition
by Kenneth L. Hamer ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:59AM
(User Info) http://users.skynet.be/somnus/virnnvw.html
But what if the brains of employees are the primary means of production, and software merely the product (or a secondry or tertiary means of production that is cheaper when shared).

Then in a capitalist economy that does not allow slavery or indentured servitude, companies try to hoard the best brains by paying them well, creating good work environments, or both.. Which is exactly what we are seeing.

- Ken
Wrong! Did you ever read the GPL ???
by Jesper Juhl ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:00PM
(User Info) http://serpent.dk

No one has power over anyone else, and you can do what you like with the code.

Wrong!
Read this little quote from the GPL (there are better quotes, but I don't have time to find them right now):
4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance.

The GPL restricts what you can do with the software. It's nowhere near anarchy!

/Jesper

Null statement: "capitalism means cooperation"
by The Famous Brett Watson ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:00PM
(User Info)
I agree entirely with your gripe on the assertion "capitalism means cooperation". It is a null statement. What societal system could exist at all without some degree of cooperation. One could invent a word describing a system which was devoid of cooperation, a system in which everybody did absolutely everything for themselves.

Let's call it ultra-solipsism.

In an ultra-solipsist society, everyone completely ignores each other because they do not believe anyone else exists. They are therefore obliged to fend entirely for themselves.

Yes, it's stupid, but that's what it would take to remove cooperation from society.

The hallmark of capitalism is selfish cooperation. People cooperate so long as it is better for them than not cooperating. Where not cooperating is better, they don't. Where being anti-cooperative is better, some choose to be anti-cooperative. For example, a software company with a large market share might not have any particular reason to change its undisclosed APIs and protocols, but may choose to do so to make life hard for its competitors, thereby maintaining a firm grasp on its market.

The free software movement is not encumbered by such antisocial behaviour. Well, not fundamentally. Even KDE and GNOME can agree to cooperate on some things. Most uncooperative behaviour in free software circles comes from differences of opinion and/or hot-headedness, not a desire to hobble the other party's efforts.

Not all value is monetary in nature
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:02PM
(User Info)
then why are we using econmoic terms to discuss it. I mean terms like "increased value" are in fact vague enough to be applied to and interaction, i mean affection has an increased value if it is givin and recieved by two poeple in love. this system of analysis reveals little and glosses over much. the point being that the permutation of open source enitities is based on and existes as a result of the media in to which the were born. if you switch intellecualt models you can see more about what is going on.
Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:08PM
(User Info)
Copyleft does NOT void property rights. It provides a non-exclusive license to use that property. You may not modify a program and distribute it as a modification without specifically stating that it is modified and how it is modified. That protects your interest in the property and your ownership therein. Copyleft includes giving a copyright for yourself to the software, but allowing others nonexclusive and unhindered use of it with some small requirements.

As to capitalism hindering progress, you are mistaken. In a non-monopolistic environment, you need to compete with competitors which means making your product the best you can. To that end, you wouldn't do anything to hinder your product. M$ and Intel (I$) are in monopolistic situations which allow for them to do the abuses that they do. Breaking the monopoly would remove the abuses otherwise the companies would not succeed and survive.
Re: Communism
by Hydrophobe on Monday August 24, @12:15PM
(User Info)
Apologists for utopian "theoretical" communism always distance themselves from its catastrophic real-life manifestations.

Artificial famine in Ukraine? Purges and gulags? The madness of the Cultural Revolution and the Killing Fields? Nope, that wasn't "real" communism.

Capitalists ought to play the same game. Unemployment is a problem? Well, under "real" capitalism, everyone will be a self-employed entrepreneur, so by definition, unemployment can't exist. Problem solved.

Tomorrow, we tackle world peace...

it's yours if you can guard it sufficiently
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:16PM
(User Info)
gimme a break. open source is a raging example of anarchism at it's best, operating on a medial if not economic level. the point with IP is exactly that it's not physical. The fact is i can cut and paste your ideas up the wazoo, but if i pull that chair out from under you you fall. Physical property is not instantly and (virtually) freely replicatable. if i take it you no longer have it. not true w/ ideas.
IP is ego drivin crap and has nothing to do with an honest desire to see the state of human discource improve. I mean logos, symbols ect. make sence, i mean it's like a face for stuff. but ideas. i though of it first, i mean if that makes you sleep better at night...
" Commercial software would probably be either shareware-like or dongle-dependent, with rabid security measures to protect source, and could incorporate anybody else's work regardless of their wishes. " great - can you think of anything more egalitarian? i mean there are enough warez folks out there that you can get what you need reguardless of you economic level, but man - so what? what would suck about a world of share ware and dongles?
Re: Stallman and the GPL
by Noah Clements ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:18PM
(User Info)
The very fact that you quote RMS and the FSF seems to refute the no intellectual property argument. RMS has taken great pains in recent interviews (posted on /.) to state that He, not Eric Raymond was the father of open source. RMS was just claiming his (unenforcable) intellectual property.

If there should be no IP, why does the source of your quote matter? You are backing up your argument with statements whose owner(s) carry weight.

There is no fundamental difference in trading for prestige as opposed to trading for dollars (yen, etc). That is intellectual property that just happens to be traded for a different currency.

Re: Bla bla bla...
by Euclid ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:20PM
(User Info) http://www.io.com/~trc/Euclid/

Private ownership of property is the best way to protect the environment and still remain a free country.

Uh huh. Tell that to the property owners in the rainforests.

Can't work on a large scale
by Tony Smolar ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:20PM
(User Info)
I don't think Marxist communism can work on a large scale. It does work on small scale a good
example is your typical, non-dysfunctional family.

> From each according to his ability.

The parents, and perhaps the older childern who
are able go out and earn the money.

> To each according to his need.

The parents use the money they earn to feed, clothe the children, who cannot provide for themselves.

This can't work on a large scale, without some
huge beauracracy enforcing it. However, the huge
beauracracy defeats the point and spirit of it.
Re: Stallman and the GPL
by Tony Shepps ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:22PM
(User Info)
Stop and think about the fact that Eric Raymond is a Libertarian.

Then stop and think that perhaps ideas aren't proven right or wrong by who believes in them.

Capitalism = getting something for nothing. OSS =
by Chris Nelson ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:27PM
(User Info)
Capitalism is in fact, ultimately a *take* system. It doesn't contain the concept of "gift". Certainly it may be "give and take" but the give is never a gift. Give does not necessarily equal gift. Capitalism is about getting something for nothing. It's all about that space between cost of production and cost to consumer - skimming off that extra few cents profit on every dollar. Whether the profit goes towards research / reinvestment is irrelevant. Profit is money unrelated to effort.

OSS is about "gift". Taking that extra little slice and giving it to the community. That extra slice comes in the form of freely given time and effort. There is no "payment", and there is no expectation of return. This is ultimately not capitalism. It ain't communism either. It's the economy of gift.

According to Jacques Derrida, a gift ceases to be a gift when someone says "Thank you". That reciprocation in the form of a "thank you" implies that something can repay the gift - it becomes an exchange.

OSS is an example of true gift-giving (based on Derrida's interpretation). There is no expectation of reciprocation (there cannot be - you might be very disappointed!)

Capitalism cannot exist without some concept of "reciprocal reimbursement". OSS can.
Re: Terminology
by Noah Clements ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:28PM
(User Info)
Where I work, there are a number of Romanians as well as quite a few Russians and Ukranians. My great-grandfather and great-grandmother escaped the Ukraine right after the Revolution.

These peoples' experiences (those that have been shared with me) warns against collectivism for the masses. I have debts, and I am scared of them, but I am more scared of my circumstances being dictated to by others (and it hapens more than enough now).
Re: Free Software
by You are all Osmonds!! Throwing up on a freeway at ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:28PM
(User Info) http://www.sfgate.com/sf/zippy/
When someone else makes that choice for you it is called slavery,
Interesting comment coming from a capitalist.. So when my boss says "do that" I am a slave, eh?
Of course not. When you accept employment, you agree to use your skills and experience at the direction of another, to further your employer's business goals. By doing so, you are agreeing to share in those goals, for a time. If at some point, the goals or the methods change to your dissatisfaction, you're free to refuse to "do this" and to find another job, if neccessary. You cannot claim "I don't have a choice". Of course you do, you simply might not like all the options. A slave would not have this option. You do.
capitalism means cooperation
Tell this to microsoft.
You think Microsoft got where it is today without people cooperating with them? Had PC manufacturers, large and small, had the spine or the sense to reject MS and its shady business practices, and instead embraced something else, Microsoft would have nowhere near the kind of monopoly power it enjoys today. It can be argued that those that cooperated with MS were duped, bought off, or intimidated into doing so, or were simply greedy, but they had other options to choose from, too. Many of us just don't like their choice.
As a "staunch capitalist" you should keep in mind that it is none other than good old "big brother" that defends your precious property.
That's difficult to forget. One of the purposes of government (in the opinion of some, it should be the only purpose of government) is to protect us from each other.

BTW: The lot of you bitching about the evils of "intellectual property", please try coming up with justification beyond insubstantial selfishness. (If you're thinking about waving Rand in my face, save yourself the trouble and grow up. Citing religious texts only convinces other believers.)

Re: Back-asswards!
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @12:29PM
(User Info)
>Wow. What a load of ignorant tripe.

Wow, what an intelligent rebuttal.

This guy hit the nail on the head. Open source functions on a gift economy. Sure, some of the behavior could be explained with free market principles (like the best software being the most popular), but it is fundamentally different than the sort of role that the original essayist is trying to force it into. When I write code and I give it away, I get nothing but the satisfaction of writing interesting code, and the satisfaction that someone else is using it. That's not capitalism. Heck, that's closer to the communist ideal of work being its own reward. The only reason open source is possible is because we programmers have enough wealth to engage it as a lesuirly persuit. Even the commercial support of open source is tangental to the code itself, which is always given away.

Re: Not all value is monetary in nature
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:29PM
(User Info)
Economics is NOT about money. It is about the allocation of scarce resources. Bartering is a valid economic activity, and there is no money involved, simply my estimate of how many of my things is worth one of yours and we have to come to a consensus on it.
Re: Bla bla bla...
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:31PM
(User Info)
Hmmm...and what praytell are you referring to? Give me an example of a property owner of the rainforest.
My socioeconomic philosophy...
by Tony Smolar ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:32PM
(User Info)
...Totalitarianism with a smile. :^)

Watch soon for a dissertation on how Open Source
fits into this...
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:34PM
(User Info)
Everyone's rationale for anything is selfish, even those in religious fields. There is no such thing as a truly selfless act. We need to grow beyond the vilification of selfishness and learn to separate selfishness from exclusive selfishness which is harmful. Selfishness in that we do things to further our ego and our selves is not bad and should not be thought of as such.
Re: Stallman and the GPL
by Andrew Bell ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:35PM
(User Info)
>Software is meant to be used for a practical purpose.

What is the practical purpose of Quake? A very high percentage of software use is for enjoyment.

What I find interesting and a little annoying about FSF is that their arguments for free software are pragmatic, but these pragmatic arguments don't need software to be uncopyrightable to be valid. If their assertions are correct, there's no reason open software can't exist and succeed -- and indeed we're seeing this with the rise of Linux. But that doesn't mean tighter copyrights aren't useful. Where's the free software equivalent of Quicken? Not as much fun to write, so allowing people to charge for it is (and has been) a good way to get the program created sooner. I'm willing to pay $35 for Starcraft now rather than wait for free software to get around to creating one.

>When someone uses copyright to keep you from
>using the product as you desire, this results in
>harm to you and to all of society which is
>prohibited from making modifications, etc.

I'm prevented from creating derivative works of other copyrightable materials, too. I might be able to write an excellent Star Trek episode, but I can't sell it.

Much software wouldn't exist if we weren't willing to pay people to write it. At least some of us find that software useful, more useful than a non-existent free, open source version.
ideology
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:35PM
(User Info)
look the point here is tha open source is and i dea and a technique and is in no way in conflict with capitalism:the economic system. but given the anarchistic flow and exchange of ideas, this product with out owership and thefore central directing power is at serious odds with and hard to grasp in the presence of, CAPITALISM: THE IDEOLOGY.
all the conficts arise from the idea about how to run a market, not what the market does or how open source does or sdoes not effect it.
Re: Bravo!
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @12:36PM
(User Info)
And what exactly is it about pure capitalism that
prevents monopolies like Microsoft's?
Re: Economics is NOT about money
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:39PM
(User Info)
One mistake: Socialism != Communism. Socialism is a stop on the path from capitalism to communism. Marxism == Communism, and therefore Marxism != Socialism. You will note in previous replies, I make the distinction that Communism is both an economic and political philisophy. Anarchism, Democracy, Republicanism, etc, are all political philosophies, not economic ones (unless you want to discuss the economics of voters and such, but that is a different market than the market of goods and services).
Re: Stallman and the genius of GPL
by Hydrophobe on Monday August 24, @12:40PM
(User Info)
As a software engineer and rabid Open Source advocate, I get a true charge out of seeing the genius behind Stallman's GPL
Stop and think about the fact that Stallman and the Free Software Foundation are "collectivists"

The genius of the GPL is that it transcends the political philosophy of the folks who designed it. By making the careful distinction between free speech and free beer, the GPL explicitly allows people to charge money not only for support but even (theoretically) for free software itself. Thus the GPL can be used by people with as radically different political viewpoints as RMS and ESR.

Most of us, if we tried to design a license, would simply write it to suit ourselves. RMS deserves credit for thinking ahead and focusing on the core ideas that unite our community, regardless of political orientation.

Not to mention that he was the original voice in the wilderness, tilting at windmills. We tend to forget what sheer audacity it took to think of rewriting Unix from scratch. Without RMS's legendary pigheaded stubbornness, none of it would ever have happened.

Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Andrew Bell ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:41PM
(User Info)
"I have read a million times why capitalism frequently does NOT promote progress. I know you have reasons why it does but why release the latest and greatest product when you could release all three generations of slightly better products and make three times as much money."

Because your customers will do business with your competitors instead. If everyone charges high prices, it improves the marginal return for new competitors to enter the market. Nature abhors a vaccuum.

"Why fix the last few bugs in your video card when it will only survive the market for a year anyway."

Because I won't buy your card if it's buggy, and I won't buy any in the future if I can't trust your drivers.
libertarian base of support
by JDM ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:43PM
(User Info)
First of all, we should all thank slashdot for posting this nice little flamebait article. The arguments are so fundamentally flawed that only a die-hard libertarian/extreme neoliberal would agree that the article makes any sense.

I find this odd little US "political movement" that calls itself Libertarianism to be troubling. Isn't it odd that probably 95% of this group is 1) male 2) white 3) between 18-30 4) affluent 5) US citizens 6) watches Star Trek and reads sci-fi/fantasy almost exclusively.

When a set of ideas such as Libertarianism appeals to such a narrow subset of the population in only one particularly privileged country, one has to wonder about the soundness of the ideas. And since this "movement" is under the political radar, the ideas and conclusions haven't had the kind of scrutiny that other, more mature political philosophies have had. The closer you look at it (and I know, I've debated many Libertarian colleagues), the more it stinks.
Computers are Property...And I Like Mine
by Noah Clements ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:43PM
(User Info)
Have all of the "collectivism" folks (can they have jobs that pay them the filthy lucre?) thought about the fact that owning the ability to access /. puts them in the top 2% of all people globally??

Now don't you think that someone in that other 98% has a better use for your computer than accessing /.? I reserve the right to use my computer (and sometimes work's computer. Sshhhh) to do things that have no affect on the greater good like read /. and play games. I imagine that if someone took away any reader's computer, they would howl and scream and fight like hell. It's their computer damn it?

Now what is the difference between that and another product (remember the computer is the product of applied effort) of someone's work?
Re: Not all value is monetary in nature
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:43PM
(User Info)
money is just an absration of barter. identical principle, easier method.
besides, i agree, economics isn't about money, it uses money ( and is respect integrals (value, ect) and derivitives (barter, ect)) to describe other things. point being that it's a sucky model for the discussion of open source, whose origin in not from factors easially veiwed in economical terms, but as an enitity who is more easialy discribed in a medial model. It spaws not so much from factors of reasources and such bit from the availiblity of instantanious communication and the mind sets that follow.
Re: NOPE
by Matthew Bassett ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:44PM
(User Info)

Eh? I'm talking about peoples' favourite doctrines, and both politics and economics have those, and have mentioned them on this thread (and it can be often hard to seperate a political doctrine from it's associated economic one, and vice versa).

The capitalist model is not strictly Darwinism, since products do not randomly mutate, and quite often prosper despite the fact they are complete rubbish and entirely unfit for the market (unless you consider the marketing department part of the product... which I think breaks the analogy anyway).

It should also be pointed out that Social Darwinism is a "theory" largely made up to justify certain rather dubious social policies, and that it actually bears little resemblance to the theory of Natural Selection.

Not that any of the above is related to the point I was making, I just want to try and have the last word.

Here it is:

The point I should perhaps have been trying to make is that whatever socio-economic system you favour: Open Source software can happily co-exist with it, and provide a source of income for those that dwell within your favourite system.

So there.
Re: Bla bla bla...
by Carlie Coats ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:44PM
(User Info)
Markus Fleck writes:
There's more to living than just money, and there are many more models of economy than just two.
...which is entirely consistent with classical capitalism. The idea that money is the only way of value is a modernist heresy foisted off on the public by mathematicizing economists at Harvard Business School and such places (speaking, myself, as a mathematician).
Re: Back-asswards!
by Christopher Palmer ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:45PM
(User Info) http://acm.cs.umn.edu/~jaymz/sigfs/

Wow. What a load of ignorant tripe.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. ;)

Capitalism is a system of free markets involving the exchange of capital. [...] Monopolies are bad for real capitalism. [...] free market capitalism is the Best Way...

Okay, we disagree because we are using different definitions. Read my post again, and don't insult me this time. What you are thinking of I'll call "free marketism", which is something that I tend to go for -- voluntary cooperation. What I was railing against, and the system which Ayn and Bill dig so much, is what I call (perhaps wrongly, perhaps not) "capitalism".

[my defintion of] Capitalism is not at all about free trade -- it's about accumulating wealth, and nothing else. Bill and Ayn are both assuming that they are the most important people in the universe, and thus that all wealth should accrue to them -- regardless of the deleterious effects to other people or to the market.

We agree that [my definition of] capitalism is bad for free markets.

I note well that you did not refute my observation that OSS and capitalism [in both of our meanings] are incompatible due to the private property issue. That is my point.

Re: Communism in practice
by Jon Lasser ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:50PM
(User Info) http://www.tux.org/~lasser/

Your theoretical communism might be good for something, but it is unfortunately completely unrealistic, or it would have happened in at least _one_ communistic state.

Your theoretical capitalism might be good for something, but it is unfortunately completely unrealistic, or it would have happened in at least _one_ capitalist state (with positive results).

Re: Back-asswards!
by Rene S. Hollan ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:50PM
(User Info)
Anonymous Coward wrote:
When I write code and I give it away, I get nothing but the satisfaction of writing interesting code, and the satisfaction that someone else is using it. That's not capitalism.
Yes it is: You give software and take satisfaction. Of course the fact that giving satisfaction in this manner is so cheap (actually, zero cost) for the taker of your software makes it seam that you're not taking anything.
Actually, give and get might be a better description of a capitalist system: you wouldn't DO anything unless you got something out of it.
Regards,
Rene
Re: Communism
by Jon Lasser ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:53PM
(User Info) http://www.tux.org/~lasser/

The problem with communism is the human factor. Communism is a great idea, but the thing it does not consider is the personal greed of mankind. There is too much tendency for abuse of power and personal achievement for communism to ever work.

The problem with capitalism is the human factor. Capitalism is a great idea, but the thing it does not consider is the unlimited personal greed of mankind. There is too much tendency for abuse of power and personal achievement for pure capitalism to ever work.

collectivism
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:53PM
(User Info)
Collectivism scares lots of other people as well... but only because the assoisate it w/ a lack of indiviualism. this is a dilusion based on capitalistic propaganda.
this desruction of individuality is the goal of nearly any ruling ideology, since it insure's it's survival. capitalism and even "democracy" for that matter perpitrate just as much nasty mind control bullshit as any third world facist gov, it's just that there i s competition for that too, so it's slicker and more invisable. why bust into your house and tell you who you can and cannot talk to/ about, when we can achive the same goals through "history" in "school"?
Re: Communism
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @12:54PM
(User Info)
Communism == Anarchy (power for the people - this is not "natural" anarchy, like in wild nature (as some people seem to think). This is anarchy enlightened by human intelligence.)
Socialism == Communism with government (power for the government, usually becomes dicatorship)
Capitalism == Only money matters (ie. if you have, you are the government. Leads to "democracy", a dictatorship that doesn't seem to be a dictatorship because people vote - but there's marketing, so their vote is never enlightened nor independent)
Re: libertarian base of support
by jeepers ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @12:58PM
(User Info)
Regarding the membership statistics of the Libertarian party you mentioned, what is your source?
Preventing monopolies
by Case Roole ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:01PM
(User Info) http://billwatch.net/
The choice between the evils of private monopoly, public monopoly, and public regulation cannot, however, be made once and for all, independently of the factual circumstances. If the technical monopoly is of a service or commodity that is regarded as essential and if its monopoly power is sizable, even the shortrun effects of private unregulated monopoly may not be tolerable, and either public regulation or ownership may be a lesser evil.
Milton Friedman, Capitalism and Freedom

or, to give an answer to your question, just as the state is bound to make sure that the present rulers don't obstruct the next elections, so it has to make sure that the economy retains the character of a market.

Of course, this is at odds with the present Uebermensch interpretation of capitalism.

-cjr

Re: To Borrow an idea from Ayn Rand
by Jim Bob ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:05PM
(User Info) www.yahoo.com
Ayn Rand thought life was the important and suicide was bad idea. Rand was asked whether Objectivism would allow her to die for her husband...if she did, would it not be self-sacrifice? She said you can die for a loved one because the loved one is apart you and protecting a loved one is protecting yourself. The self sacrifice is allowed if it helps the person being...err...sacrificed.

heh, I'm not sure I got my point across at all ;)
Wrong
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:08PM
(User Info)
Sorry, that doesn't work. Capitalism DOES consider greed, materialism, and all of that. It rewards it, thrives on it. The greedy man with a strong desire to achieve will go far in a capitalist society. Communism pretends that we can overcome greed and corruption in order to work for the good of the people. I guess I don't have much faith in mankind, but I don't buy it.
Re: amusing
by Phil Fraering ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:10PM
(User Info)
I'd wonder if some of the Socialist Weenies who
think copyright protection isn't important to open
source would mind if someone took their code and
made a commercial compiled proprietary product
with it...

(Now do you get it?)
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by Tim Otten ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:13PM
(User Info) http://model-un.ml.org/
Generally, starving people live in countries where each person defends himself -- or is defended by a regime because of his value to the regime. There's word "value" again...

"modern famine.... [is] a political problem."

Oh my, if that's not a Pandora's Box containing infinite amounts of dogma....

Politics, economics, and a million other things are intertwined. To that extent, politics is involved. Otherwise, economics is _about_ meeting needs (usually material/financial needs), and if famine doesn't exemplify an economic failure, then I don't know what would.

Name a famine in this century that was caused by political forces or for which relief was just not available

I can't speak about political forces because I doubt two people could agree what, exactly, a political force in a given scenario is. However, I cannot name a famine for which relief was available -- if relief were available, there wouldn't have been a famine.
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by Phil Fraering ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:17PM
(User Info)
If you think China today is a capitalist country
you need to buy another dozen neurons and double
your brain's processing power.
Re: Totally wrong-headed
by Nicolas MONNET ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:19PM
(User Info) http://www.idnet.fr
Ohmygawd! Does that mean that, anybody could take Apache's source, change it, distribute it, make a motherfukin' lot of money out of it, and NOT GIVE SOURCE BACK? Hopefully, Apache is protected by the GPL, isn't it?
What, it's not?

Hell, son of a libertarian bitch, OPENSOURCE != GPLED SOFTWARE, SO YOUR DEMONSTRATION IS WORTH SHITE!!!!
As any libertarian argumentation anyway, shall I say.
Re: Back-asswards!
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:20PM
(User Info)

Couldn't agree more. I think we've strayed too far from the main issue. Simpley put, capitalism is a system of private ownership of capital (courtesy of Websters). That in itself rules out OSS.

On the issue of economics, you are absolutely correct. It seems some people are clinging to the ideal premise of capitalism. It doesn't work that way in the real world. No matter what it's supossed to be, Capitalism is about wealth, power, and personal property. When's the last time you saw a corporation do something just for the public good? Never. Sure, they may donate to charity, run public service campaigns, but those are to increase there public image and increase sales, not to do good deeds for man.
Re: libertarian base of support
by Jay Woods ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:20PM
(User Info)
Since the stats you give reasonably discribe the readers of slashdot (for those that live in the US) this is a reasonable place to hold the discussion.

---Jay
Social Contract
by Tim Otten ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:22PM
(User Info) http://model-un.ml.org/
The GPL exists as a social contract in Open Source. Last I checked, anarchy didn't have any social contracts...
Re: Totally wrong-headed (the problem is pride)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @01:22PM
(User Info)
It's seems to me we take too much pride in winning, not in having accomplished something.

We take pride in being better than others, or having a better condition than others. Just look at kids saying things like: "My father is stronger than yours", or "I bet i'm better than you at this sport". And in high school many people still think that having better grades than others is better than learning something useful.

And it seems many people stay this childish all their lives.

We enjoy competition way too much. Instead, we should enjoy the fact that we did something useful.

But i guess it can never be this way, we will always be childish in this respect.

(excuse my english)
Nice Try
by Art Vandelay ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:23PM
(User Info) http://www.pathcom.com/~kokai

Hm. Well, I recognized this immediately as an ultra-conservative super-capitalist trying to rationalized or explain the OpenSource phenomenon in terms of the success capitalism... Well I read it and I can say that it is exactly that... the author is trying to explain the non-rxistent link between two things that are related by some superficial similarities -- practical similarities, not similarities in goals or philosophy. OpenSource is not fundamentally harmonious with capitalism. I haven't the foggiest clue why anyone would want to believe that.
Just my 2 lines of code,
Art Vandelay

Re: Economic Theory
by Peter Kovacs ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:23PM
(User Info)
The incentive is there because the open shop cannot compete with the closed shop as a closed shop (there's already a real-world example of this: Netscape).
Re: Communism
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:24PM
(User Info)
No. All Marx wanted is public ownership of natural resources. In that respect most countries are in part communist.
practice, politics, seminar
by Michael Yount ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:27PM
(User Info) http://csf.colorado.edu/seminars/
One good observation I've seen repeated on /. is that one doesn't need to buy into the OSS ideology to enjoy the product.

That said, I'd love to see you all discuss real issues such as the proposed Multilateral Agreement on Investment, and what effects they may have on free software. See pro and con sites for details.

On a related subject, CSF plans to host a free, moderated seminar with David Roodman, author of Natural Wealth of Nations : Harnessing the Market for Environmental Protection and Economic Growth in mid-October. Please contact me or see the URL above for details.

Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Mr. J. ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:28PM
(User Info)
But...but... then I would have less material to use in my self-deprecations...
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by trask ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:32PM
(User Info) http://www.tinaa.com/
> one part of social standards is not letting
> peoples die of not having enough food or medical
> assistance.

Ok, so 'social standards' == hunger problems etc.

Thanks for the clarification.
Re: Not all value is monetary in nature
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:36PM
(User Info)
I'd say money is an instance of barter, not an abstraction of it, but your point is taken. As to the rest of your comment, I don't think I agree entirely, but I need more time to elucidate my thoughts on the matter. I agree that most people don't see open source as fitting in well with standard economic theories, I still maintain that it fits best with capitalism because it is the author creating the product and then choosing not to have sole proprietary control over it and any derivatives of it. The creator still has initial ownership of his or her product but has decided to allow anyone to use that product in any way provided that modifications are clearly marked so as to protect the author from code that he or she does not wish to be related to.
Re: Computers are Property...And I Like Mine
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:36PM
(User Info)
When you buy a computer, you pay for the raw materials and the physical labor of assembling the thing. You do not pay for the ideas and discoveries that were made to create your computer.

On the other hand, when you pay for a software package, you are paying for the ideas contained in the source code. ``Owning'' thoughts is a very stupid and self-destructive way to make money -- which is why MS and others will eventually destroy themselves.
TMBG: Flood: #16
by Mr. K. ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:38PM
(User Info)
An ultra-solipsist society (if that's not an oxymoron) would only last one generation. :)
Re: Back-asswards!
by John Thacker ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:38PM
(User Info)
The phrase "Since resources are limited, taking as much for yourself as is possible necessarily means depriving someone else" immediately disqualifies you from having any concept of economics.

Yes, scarcity exists, but the pie is not fixed. Capitalism increases everyone's living standards,
through specialization.
Re: is media not money
by Rene S. Hollan ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:38PM
(User Info)
Perhaps I did not make it clear enough WHY open source software can only exist for non-transient lengths of time under a libertarian system.

A libertarian system PERMITS just the sort of exchange that enables open source software to flourish: there can be no government interferance in the production or disemination of code, nor can there be any requirements on what code MUSt be written.

Open Source software exists in non-libertarian systems only because it is a relatively new phenomenon that governments have not yet begun to attempt to control.

You are certainly correct in noting that cheap (internet) communication facilitates the cooperation of those that produce open source software, but this is merely an artifact of technology: open source efforts existed before internet access was common and wide-spread, although the "teams" were necessarily smaller and not geographically diverse.

Open source software can now be produced at a high quality level, very cheaply, because of the large number of peer reviewers available. It is "worth" to contribute to an open source effort because the payoff is so big when compared to the "cost" of an individual's effort. EVEN IF people take open source software without contributing anything, the developers are not deprieved of what they've developed. The cost of restricting and controlling distribution far outway the benefits of the largest number of possible contributers available without such attempted "closed" controls.

There are strong economic arguments that suggest that open source software, AS LONG AS ITS PRODUCTION IS NOT INTERFERED WITH, will win out over close efforts because of the quality issue. About the only exceptions might be niche software that benefits only a small number of people.

Communist and "pseudo-capitalist" (i.e. American) forms of government reserve the right to "intervene" in the markets. A libertarian government would be EXPLICITLY forbidden (by the manner of its constitution) from doing so.

Regards,

Rene
Sometimes, you just have to laugh
by vlax ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:41PM
(User Info)
...watching programmers and "net-heads do politics is certainly well worth laughing at.

The most fundamental characteristic of capitalism is not cooperation - that is, by definition, an aspect of all human societies. Indeed, capitalism is, in some ways, more about picking the right moment to stab someone you've cooperated with in the back.

Even private property isn't quite the keystone of capitalism. Absolutist notions of private property are the keystone of much of libertarianism - and this is one of that philosophy's greatest flaws. It presupposes that the sovereignty of the land-owner has no impact on their neighbours, something that may have had some kernel of truth to it on the frontier a century ago, but in an era of urbanisation and pollution makes no sense whatsoever. Furthermore, it presupposes a government to enforce the right to enjoyment of property at all costs, and with that comes regulation of land use and economic activity, and the whole system comes crashing down.

Indeed, no society anywhere in the world has ever completely collectivised property, nor does any practice absolute property rights. Adam Smith himself suggests that property taxes and regulation are fundammentally just, finding no basis in natural law for private ownership of land, just for private ownership of the products of labour.

The key to capitalism is (and this is important folks) __the commoditisation of labour__.

This means that I can buy your labour, and resell the product. You take no share of the profits in the sale of the products of your labour, nor, theoretically, do you bear the risks inherent in the expectation of sale. The major flaws in this are fairly apparent. Labour, like any other commodity, will sell for exactly as much as it costs to produce and maintain under capitalism, that is to say the minimum required to maintain the labourer's productivity. The labourer can never by this means accumulate the excess capital that can support him in his old age, or in the event of handicap, or even enough to raise himself out of poverty. Median standards of living can never raise themselves beyond the minimum of survival without some social intervention on the part of organised labour or government.

For some lucky few, the laws of supply and demand will provide them with decent incomes through the rareness of their talents, but for most that can never be possible, even in America today, with its 401k plans and Social Security. After all, under capitalism someone always has to flip the burgers, and they will always receive as little from their employers as possible.

Furthermore, the labourer, although unable to gain when the products of his labour are profitable for sale, does bear the risk of loss when they lose value. After all, failing companies lay people off, cut their benefits, and leave them inappropriately skilled to find new work all the time.

Marx suggested dispensing with this by allowing workers to directly control the means of production, profitting directly from the value of their labour and accruing excess capital through their possession of the means of production. Marx opposed the commoditisation of labour. The welfare state was not his creation, as he never suggested that anyone had the right to be fed if they didn't wish to work.

Open source matches the Marxist notion far better that the libertarian-capitalist notion, although it matches it only imperfectly. The GPL is very much a legal means of enforcing the kind of relationship that many believe ought to be natural law. It's a loophole, not the core of the philosophy.

It places in the hands of each programmer who works with open source the means of production. Rather than selling their labour as a commodity, the value they accrue is directly related to the value of their labour, although payment is not always made in cash, but rather in presitge.

Furthermore, by its nature, another programmer who can profit from the use of open source has placed in their hands the means of production they need. They are not beholden to the author of the program or any owner, except in as much as they must make their work available to those who can usefully produce from it.

For someone using GPL'd software to produce commercial software (e.g. someone who uses gcc to make non-open source software) the relationship is very direct. Their means of production belong to them, and they gain directly from the value of their labour. For those making and freely distributing open source software, payment comes more indirectly, in the form of prestige, because now they can brag on their resumes about their work. In both cases, their is no owner purchasing the programmer's labour and keeping any excess value for himself.

Furthermore, the work is, in many ways, collective. How many GPL'd projects start with web pages and mailing lists, where people get together and divide the labour cooperatively, then review each others work. Yes, you can quit and do things your own way if you like, but there's nothing anti-socialist about that. The means of production belong to the worker, who is free to dispose of them as he pleases.

Socialism isn't about eliminating competition, it is about eliminating unnecessary middlemen.

Your case linking open source to capitalism is weak, primarily because you've attempted to make a relationship between private property and property with some restrictions on it. GPL places restrictions on the use of software - it requires that any modifications to the software also be GPL'd. Truly private property would mean that the original author of the software has the sole right to profit from it's use, and could sell that right to anyone they please.

It opposes itself to the very notions of absolute property rights required by libertarian capitalism, as well as standing against the commoditisation of labour by freeing the programmer from the demands of a boss.

Marx did not expect socialism to arise by some violent act of displacement of the previous system, he expected it to come gradually, making capitalist models progressively less viable and productive. Open source is a good example of the revolution in progress, as it meets Marx' criteria for worker ownership of the means of production, and as such __is resulting in better software value than capitalism can produce__.

I'm afraid you've made the classical error of linking socialism with centralised authority, a notion you won't find anywhere in Marx. GPL'd software is only private property in the narrowest and legalistic sense, and its unique properties are protected by government intervention.

You're penultimate paragraph is terribly socialist in intent and wording. You allow that the great virtue of open source is that workers can use it and profit from it as they see fit to, where capitalism grants that right only to employers.

I maintain that socialism is in no way incompatible with open source, and that the very idea opposes itself to Smithian and Lockian notions of property. Fortunately, capitalists will eventually always go with what's cheapest, thereby destroying the very fondations of the system they profit from.
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by John Thacker ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:42PM
(User Info)
Almost all famines, say Sudan right now, have sufficient aid available. The problem comes in because governments confiscate the aid, and cause problems. E.g. in Sudan, the government takes its share, sometimes cruelly destroying food, then the rebels take their 20%, so on.

Incidentally, the availablity of free food in Somalia caused the farmers there to go bankrupt (couldn't sell food when it was free) - the next
year, with all farmers bankrupt, there was even less food.
Re: amusing
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:42PM
(User Info)
Not only that, but the GPL requires that modifications to the code be documented as such to protect the author. For example, suppose that someone took someone else's GPL code...say gtk...and modified it to send a message to [email protected] claiming that they will kill the president. Suppose the modification made software using that toolkit send that message whenever a new GtkButton was created. Then this modified version was distributed as the original. The authors of gtk could be arrested for a felony, unless they could prove that this version was rogue and not valid. If they could, then the rogue version would have to be removed as it violated the GPL. Protections of this nature are very important and provided for in the GPL.
Re: Back-asswards!
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:44PM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Well, then, that's your problem -- you're using the wrong definition of capitalism.

BTW -- I don't agree that OSS and capitalism are incompatible. I think they are perfectly compatible, since OSS implies an exchange in a free market. If I release software with an open license, you get to use that software and I get feedback and fixes.

Ever here of ivory?
by John Thacker ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:45PM
(User Info)
In African countries, ivory and elephants are best protected by capitalism. The government deciding "no hunting" doesn't work. What works is selling the limited right to hunt in certain areas for lots of money, carefully controlled. This raises money to save the elephants, and reduces the desire of the poor villagers to hunt all the elephants, since they have another source of profit.

That's the same reason timber companies which own forests replant their trees.

John
Re: Back-asswards!
by Christopher Palmer ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:46PM
(User Info) http://acm.cs.umn.edu/~jaymz/sigfs/

Yes, scarcity exists

Yep.

but the pie is not fixed. Capitalism increases everyone's living standards

Capitalism niether adds to the Earth's natural capacity, nor increases everyone's living standards. It increases the living standards of some, at the expense of others.

(That is, if you consider 'owning wealth' to be synonymous to 'living', which I emphatically do not.)

Put simply, Bill Gates is not creating anything. No value springs from his work.

Re: collectivism
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:49PM
(User Info)
Democracy does not attempt to destroy individuality. Individuality and communism CANNOT exist at the same time. Democracy invites individualism. What people do and do not teach as "history" is not controlled by the government. That is up to the individual teaching the course and his or her superiors, and the school board. Maybe even the state government as far as standards goes. Teaching something as history does not destroy individuality. As to "nasty mind control bullshit", what are you referring to wrt democracy? Enlighten us, please. Some of us don't simply take statements at face value without specifics backing them up.
Re: amusing
by Sebastian Schaffert ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:49PM
(User Info) http://www.woanders.de/~wastl
Then let's consider this:

The GPL exists (in this form) just because we live in a more or less capitalist world. Therefore it is adopted to the needs of this capitalist world.
To conclude that because the GPL shows capitalistic elements, Open Source is capitalistic is IMHO an infinite loop.
Re: libertarian base of support
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:49PM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Huh?

I'm not really a Libertarian, and I've recently decided that the UFP would be the most horrible tyranny imaginable.

But you're wrong about the history of Libertarianism -- it has a long and respectable history. It's also pretty worthless to criticize a political philosophy based on the demographics of the people who espouse it.

Re: Can't work on a large scale
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:50PM
(User Info)
It can't work on a small scale without some tiny beauracracy enforcing it, either. Show me one family where the kids are allowed to do whatever the hell they please.
Re: Ever here of ivory?
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:50PM
(User Info)
Not only that, but if the villagers were allowed to own the land and the elephants, they would breed the elephants specifically for ivory and would not need to kill wild ones.
Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Face ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:51PM
(User Info)
Then explain why all desktop video cards currently are of such poor quality. This is a fact, and I am sure that you are ignorant in your statement.
Re: Wrong
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:54PM
(User Info)
Capitalism does not consider unlimited greed. (Read the person's response again again.) Unlimited greed is the reason we have monstrousities like Bill Gates.
Rainforest Owners
by Michael Perkins ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:54PM
(User Info) http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mperkins/


>>Hmmm...and what praytell are you referring to? Give me an example of a property owner of the rainforest.

There are farmers who own land in areas of Brazil and Other parts of South America who burn the jungle to the ground to use the land as pasture or farmland. It's unfortunate that the land doesn't stay fertile for very long as farmland. Thought this would help...

---
Kaldin
Re: NOPE
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:57PM
(User Info)
Careful...theories are used to explain things. Gravity is a "theory", so we can't just say that something is "just a theory". I agree that the capitalistic model is not strictly darwinistic...or is it? Mutations don't "just happen". Something causes them to happen. Be it exposure to radiation, UV rays, whatever. So, in that sense we could see the modifiers of open source programs as the forces behind the "random" mutations of software.

Well, now that we have beat an analogy to death, I disagree that open source will coexist with any socio-economic system. In communism, the state determines how to use the factors of production, and that can include your time. If your use of your time is at odds with what the state tells you it shoule be, then you are in violation of the law and could be subject to punishment. Only the freedom to do as you wish is what allows open source to exist successfully, and it is only the continuation of that freedom that allows it to continue to exist.
Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Face ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:57PM
(User Info)
Which capitalistic system does not lead to a monopoly. Are you saying that Intel is not in direct competition with AMD, or Compaq, or Cyrix? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Did you know that intel frequently holds back a product to release the in between product?
Many TV manufactures (they are all in high competiton) are releasing 750line models even though they have 1080line models which are HDTV compatible only so that they can sell both models.
If you actually think CEOs and sales managers say "I think we should release the best product we can, to make everyone happy" or even to beat out the competiton you are just dead wrong.
Intercompany communication DOES exist, and they all deside to release a more cost effective product in parallel and hold the horizon stuff on the horizon. Marketing classes and business classes will give you an idea of this, that is why so many college students in the USA will tell you capitalism does not only lead to progress.
Re: but...
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:58PM
(User Info)
I agree completely. When you write a program, you make a choice between getting money out of your work, or getting a superiour product.
Bill Gates wants money over good software, for instance, but the authors of the GIMP would rather have a quality image-editing package instead of money.
Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @01:58PM
(User Info)
What do you mean by "all desktop video cards are of such poor quality"? Unqualified statements hold no water.

Re: Communism in practice
by mayhexx ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:02PM
(User Info) http://nicco.ml.org/~mayhexx/
That is cool, if it hasnt happened before, no way it will happend in the future, this would make linux 2.2 unrealistic too...
Seriously, I hear this arguement against communism all the time, and everytime i get amazed about the ignorance in it.
Big deal.
by Mr. Nifty ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:02PM
(User Info)
Big deal.

These economic theories were developed when intellectual property represented a miniscule portion of economies.

In the future (today) intellectuals will debate over GPL vs Artistic vs BSD licenses. Maybe societies will rise and fall on the basis of these ideas.

P.S. Thanks for taking the time to write your article, I can tell you put real effort into it.

Anyway, none of this is going to matter once the UFO people come.
Does anybody remember economic scarcity?
by slew ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:05PM
(User Info)

If I remember my economics from school,
an economic system simply is the method
of distribution used by society to
allocate resources. In any viable
economic system, best way to allocate
resources is to distribute them where they
generate the most value to society.

One of the premises of Capitalism is that
it works the best when resources are scarce.
Without scarcity, there are many possible
economic systems that can function equal to
or better than Capitalism.

According to capitalism, market forces are
the best way to allocate resources (assuming
they are scarce). In socialism, a central
body (e.g., the govt) allocates resources.
In communism, resources are allocated according
to need.

As with all real economic systems, the Open
Source community can be a hybrid of all three.

Projects requiring a lot of scarce resources
use fame and prestige "value placeholders" to
attract the required programmers and hardware
to work on their project. The hope is the
market forces will attract the required resources.
This closely models a capitalist system.

Inside companies that contribute to the Open
Source communitity, the company (for better or
worse) directs resources to projects in the
hope of gaining more value (IBM, Sun, Red Hat,
etc.). This closely models a socialist system.

Some projects attract resources based on their
need for resources. Many programmers want
to contribute to a project that needs them
(note: this is not the same as charity).
This closely models a communist system.

The reason that many of these economic models
seem to work in the Open Source community is
that resources are NOT scarce, in fact, sometimes
there are too many resources.

If, one day, programmers and hardware become
scarce resources, the Open Source movement will
more closely resemble the real world and
will probably move the way the real world
is moving... to capitalism. Until then, there
is room for all types of economic systems.

BTW: it is a mistake to assume the IP (or any
other form of property) is inherent in capitalism.
In the real world, it was decided that property
laws were required to get capitalists to share.
Just like in communist states, it was decided
that dictators were required to get communists
to share. Practicality (not some ideological
economic system) is the force that governs most
of the people in the world today.
Time of Testing.
by Codifex Maximus ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:05PM
(User Info)

The last week has been very interesting. Interesting in that what makes up the very core LINUX philosophy is being tested. That core is embodied in the GNU Manifesto and it's associated documents. Freedom for the code.

As I see it, the GPL/LGPL provides the best protection for Open-Source software today against any entity that would seek to close the code from the ones who created it.

Corporations are looking for niches and will find them; is this not what we want? Capitalism embracing the Open-Source method for it's own benefit? Most corporations, it seems, are trying to understand what Open-Source is all about. Forgive them if they don't get it right away.

There will always be code that is closed. As long as the operating system, that which has the potential to dictate program development, is free then I am happy. Any that attempt to close up the development and standards for LINUX, not giving the community that developed it the leading voice, is sure to garner a great deal of opposition and it's leaders will be ostracized.

We need standards, we embrace standards, we cooperate with one another; we just wont allow our autonomy to be usurped.

or not.
by Tim Otten ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:08PM
(User Info) http://model-un.ml.org/
There is an irony surrounding the GPL: As an idea, it philosophically contradicts all "western concepts of intellectual property ownership." As an idea, it legally exists (it legally has to exist) within a context of "western concepts of intellectual property." However, the GPL exists to work around "western concepts of intellectual property."

And I've never heard proponents of Open Source Software support either centralized economies or totalitarian governments. However, Open Source is still collectivist, and if you think collectivism is about centralized economies or totalitarian governments, then, well... you need to learn about collectivism.
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:09PM
(User Info)
Software is not a real product. The real product is the plastic in the CD-ROM that your software ships on. Sorry, but source code is just elaborate plans, i.e. formulas. Can you honestly claim that formulas are ``real products''? Mathematicians have spent a god-awfull amount of time and effort on developing formulas, but does that mean that they ``own'' the resulting formulas?
On the Dangers of Classification
by Chris Marston ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:10PM
(User Info)
The problem with something like open source is that it completely fails to fit into any sane structured definition or classification. How can it be an economic model without scarcity? How can it be a social model when its primary purpose is the production of goods? Hell, what *is* its primary purpose? Does it have one ? Does it care?

Free software faces a plague of pernicious intellectual 'isms' just desperate to slap its unique bouquet of culture, product, and fluidic cooperation into a discrete band on the socio-politico-economic spectrum. But since the tehcnologies that allow open source to exist are, socially speaking, brand new, there is no precedent, and no apparent way of describing the damned movement with the system's existing axioms. Don't even bother trying.

Hoffstadter(sp?) talked about something like this in his book, 'Godel Escher Bach: An eternal golden braid': How rational manipulation and classification are innately limited, how a symbology -- no matter how complicated -- is doomed to incompletness; socialism, communism, libertarianism, capitalism, thatcherism and hermaphrodism and any other ism can only describe the world imperfectly.

Without getting into all that weird Cantorian Godelian mind-altering math shit, I'd like to present the open source world with yet another misleading analogy: Open source is an economic platypus. It lives, it breathes, it quacks, it lactates, and swims but -- and this is the part I want on a T-Shirt -- Open Source is /NOT/ a duck OR a beaver. At least, not a cute one.

Other than that, 'twas a nice, happy, solid little essay. Kudos to the author, whose name I can't be bothered to scroll up to find.

Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Face ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:12PM
(User Info)
Also I forgot to comment on your first point.
I am sorry I rushed through my explanation and said that it voided property rights, what I should have said is. The Open Source while tranfering ALL rights of the original author to the persons downloading it, it does maintain that that license cannot be removed, however that is only so that someone downloading it does not replace it with a limiting licence, or tranfer ownership to any specific entity.
"For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights"
I doubt property rights even apply as most property cannot be duplicated, or if you wish to take it another way would you free of charge allow anyone wishing to own your property own it with equal rights as you?
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:12PM
(User Info)
In other words, "ideas should be owned except when they shouldn't". Brilliant.

By the way, if you borrowed ideas from home shows, you have certainly taken ideas for free. The people making the shows have probably spent more time developing their ideas than you have spent writing code.
Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Face ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:15PM
(User Info)
Read the GGI video hardware developer guide. That is my support for this statement.
Simply features that are very useful for modern dektops such as X/WindowMaker, X/E or any multitasking envioronment using the video card are lacking in desktop video cards. There is more then enough competition in that market, but so long as no one jumps the gun they can all have moderate cards, and leave state saving etc to 700$+ cards.
The whole thing is about DEMOCRACY
by Sebastian Schaffert ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:19PM
(User Info) http://www.woanders.de/~wastl
I think you all missed the point about Open Source.

IMHO, Open Source exists because there is democracy, freedom of speech and press. It's neither capitalism nor socialism, both are not social systems, but commercial ones.
For example, you could have a capitalist dictatorship or a socialist one. In neither Open Source could exist, if you are not allowed to say what you think. There are/were also socialist as well as capitalist democracies, where you are allowed to say what you think.
Finland may be considered a fairly (not completely) socialist country, but it is also a democratic one. And all of you know, where Linux comes from...:-)

Sebastian
Re: Terminology
by An ominous cow-herd on Monday August 24, @02:28PM
(User Info)

What about people who freely choose to form collectives? As, say, the Linux project or Usenet? Seriously, if these are not collectives by the simple dictionary definition what the *are* they?

As for debt...most third world people have had debts taken on by their governments for them, usually at the behest of major first-world corporations. Welcome to the wonderful world of corporate socialism. :(

Finally, I regret to say that I am posting this anonymously because of the appalling treatment which is meet out to even the most modest suggestion of this sort.

Re: GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Jeffrey Davis ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:30PM
(User Info)
>GPL assigns copyright of your material to you, protecting the misuse of it, and it also provides for others to copy, modify, and distribute your code and their modifications as long as the obey the terms of the license.

Which is to say, it's a legal hack. Since there is no common legal status for someone to assign to something they want freely available but protected from commercial enclosure, RMS created the GPL -- which, as you point out, uses the standard copyright status as a building block.

That names become associated with iterations of free software doesn't mean that those persons 'own' the software in any sense normally implied by property rights.
I like to code.
by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24, @02:32PM
(User Info)
Most of you seem to like politics about movements that are about coding. Some like movements about coding. I like coding. Must we learn politics to code? I sure hope not, its already hard enough learning autoconf, automake, libtool, and then squeezing in time to learn about GPL and LGPL.
A little harsh
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:32PM
(User Info)
Of course not, what economic system does consider unlimited greed?

As for Bill Gates being a monstrosity, I think that's a little harsh. I don't claim to know Bill Gates, or his motives, or his reasoning. Yes, his company is damaging to the industry. I don't like him much myself. However, from an economic standpoint, he is a huge success. He's rich, he's responsible for promoting huge growth in personal computing, and he's one of the more powerful members of society. There is nothing that says he cannot do this. I don't see how we can blame him for taking his company as far as he can. Complain about it all you want, but if you really don't like it, what are you doing about it? (And don't say not using Microsoft products, because that's not a solution. There will always be a microsoft lurking.)
Re: collectivism
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:33PM
(User Info)
look, if your gonna sit there telling me
"Some of us don't simply take statements at face value without specifics backing them up." right after saying "Individuality and communism CANNOT exist at the same time. Democracy invites individualism. " You might as well be reading off the rotc 101 black board.
the school board is government. this the arguements in court over the teaching of darwinism and then tell me that the government isn't involved. "Teaching something as history does not destroy individuality." no, and neither does not teaching something. If education, running head to head w/ mass media, is not the primary tool of ideological indoctrination, i am curious as to what is? why do you think the right gets so upset about bringing up homosexuality in the schools? i mean come on. what people are taught has a hell of a lot to do w/ who they are. Do your fundemental beliefs (still) differ that far from your parent's or other major figures beiliefs? of course not, we know cuz we learn, opinions and "fact".
the fact is that neither communism nor democracy "attempt to destroy individuality", power seeks to remain in power. whether that strucure is within a system calling itself democratic or communist, or being straight forward a going facist, that fact remains the king of the hill trys to stay there.
how has for instance our democracy attempted to see that it's peoples ideologies stay reletively unthreating to the powers that be? well in the sixties police hosed down and sent dogs to attack people who wanted an end to segragation. yes, that ultimetly failed, but not after extended and prolific attempts to supress the movement. ever heard the term anarchism in a high school class? what do you think of the monroe doctrine? i am neither as well versed or as elequent and the father of modern linguistics and MIT proffessor Noam Chomsky, check out his archive at
http://www.worldmedia.com/archive/index.html
i mean these dicotimies of good and evil are sort of crude tools for understanding modern politics and identity constructions.
and i bekive that there are about two generations of russians, chinese, and cubans who would disagree with you as to their lacking individuality. there certainly more unique than say the audiance of a rage against the machine concert.
i would love to see you back up "Democracy invites individualism" or "Individuality and communism CANNOT exist at the same time".
Re: amusing
by Jason ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:39PM
(User Info)
Interesting proposition. The real intent of my reply was to show that the GPL is not contrary to capitalism, but instead contrary to socialism and communism which do not allow the freedom of the creator of a product to specify how the work may be used since there is no private ownership of property.

However, your argument is interesting. To say that the GPL is a result of the capitalist economy it came from and that is the reason it has capitalistic elements in no way diminishes it's inherent support of capitalism though. I fail to see the infinite loop here. I assume you are talking about "begging the question" which is a fallacy that uses the conclusion of a statement to justify the statement. However, I don't see that in my argument. If you could point out specifically where you see the error, I would be happy to consider the statement and see if I can rephrase it.
Re: amusing
by mayhexx ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:40PM
(User Info) http://nicco.ml.org/~mayhexx/
Socialism - n. 1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods;

Let's examine this definition. The first part asserts that Socialism advocates the governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

Is it just me, or did it say Collective before governmental. Open Source is deffinetly collective.

Finally, the third definition indicates that socialism is a transitional state between capitalism and marxim, and is not pure marxism because the monetary wealth is distributed unequally, as in those who do more work have more monetary wealth.

Socialism means all these things, but not necesarily at the same time. Marx named the transitional state socialism, but that doesnt have to mean that it's what you mean when you talk about it.
I could name my cat "Fish", but it doesnt make it a fish.

These provisions indicate that you have the right to claim your code as intellectual property, but as released under the GPL, you agree not to charge for it. Interesting, so the GPL does seem to support private property.

I dont think private property is an issue about socialism. It's more about the way Open Source works. Even if you own your code, it's at the publics disposal freely. You can charge for GPL too, just look at linux.

Open Source isnt PURELY socialistic, but its adapted to the capitalistic world it excists in.
It uses the concept of sharing, and working for the general, and personal good, instead of just personal. It is way more socialistic than most other forms of software development.

// mayhexx

Re: Ever here of ivory?
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:40PM
(User Info)
ok, let me get this straight. if they couldn't keep them from hunting elephants before what to make you think that the can stop them from hunting out side the designated area. and what does "carefully controlled" mean in africa. my good freiend grew up in lagos, nigeria where ther are 25-30 cult related "disappearances" a day, and you going to tell me that the can keep people from poaching by making them pay money? thats called we better legislate our cut.
Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Andrew Bell ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:43PM
(User Info)
>Then explain why all desktop video cards currently are of such poor quality.

I haven't had a problem related to my video card in either my home or work machine in six months. And these cards are better than the previous generation (in resolution and 3-D acceleration).

Your original claim was that capitalism does not promote progress, and somehow the bugginess of video drivers was evidence of this. But how much better is a Voodoo 2 at 3-D than a 3 year old card? A whole lot better, I'd say. So cards don't support a spec you like well? Do you believe that magically they would under a non-capitalist system? Do you believe that video cards aren't progressing? I say that the bugginess affects few enough people that bug counting is not a reasonable measure of progress, and their failure to meet a spec you wish they did meet is likewise not evidence of this.
Addendum
by Chris Marston ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:43PM
(User Info)
And oh yeah: Don't worry about thinking free software into some sort of ideological box to make it source-level compatible with a political thing. Open source and the ideological cachetisms of your choice exist in mutually exclusive namespaces. Just enjoy the ride. Quack quack.
Re: Computers are Property...And I Like Mine
by Noah Clements ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:55PM
(User Info)
Actually, the physical materials and manual labor components are a VERY small proportion of the cost of a computer. Most of the cost is contained within intellectual property. Just because that intellectual property needs a physical form to become manifest, does not make it any less intellectual.

Why is my labor less worth protection than is a farmer's or a carpenter's or a sculptor's?

Ideas are NOT at issue. It is the implementation of those ideas. I cannot copyright or patent an idea that I have to "Abstract the transmission of textual data such that many entities can receive it at once". I can, however, copyright my html parser or my web server.
closer to research than capitalism
by Dean Christakos ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:55PM
(User Info) http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~dean
Actually, I was much relieved to see some parallels being drawn between the Open Source movement and capitalism without resorting to quoting from that snake-oil selling huckster Ayn Rand. :)

Anyway, to me, Open Source is not like the "free market" where people negotiate over price as much as it is like the academic research process. All methods and techniques results are out in the open, for all to see and duplicate and improve upon. The only "payment" for these services is a footnote at the end of each resulting article.

Open Source is the same way-- everyone has a need that must be fulfilled (whether it is additional utilities or device drivers, or whatever). The individuals can build upon the works of others, as long as the sources are acknowledged and others are allowed to do the same. And they all realize that the entire process is going to proceed faster if there is a large pool of people that can make improvements and add input.

And, as everyone knows, the Soviet Union had good publishing scientists, just as the freedom-loving, capitalistic USA does.

-Dean
Re: Excellent
by Jeffrey Davis ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @02:59PM
(User Info)
>It is PRECISELY because we do NOT (yet) have government interferance in the production of software that a free market in it's production has arisen.

Oh yeah? Then all that cold war spending on missile guidance systems, GPS, arpanet, CADD, etc. etc. was just a coincidence? I think libertarians who argue for no government interferance in the economy really _underestimate_ just how _dependent_ capitalism is on government. In any case, are you gonna restrict the government from providing sewage services to your workplace? Didn't think so.

>Governments license doctors. Left unchecked, they will soon license programmers.

That's an instance of professionalism. You could blame the government if you like, but I think that would be going too easy on the doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. They fight long and hard for their protections.
Re: I like to code.
by Codifex Maximus ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:00PM
(User Info)

In a perfect world AC, you would be allowed to code without interference. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world but one that is dynamically changing.

LINUX as a community, must protect itself from being bound by self-serving entities. (side note - see below) Otherwise, we are no better than sheep to be sheared. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Re: A little harsh
by Ivan Tkatchev ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:03PM
(User Info)
Bill Gates is a monstrousity because he is a rich, powerful leader of the biggest software company, while still retaining his childish mentality. He's a menace to society.
Re: is media not money
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:04PM
(User Info)
"WHY open source software can only exist...in a libertarian system.A libertarian system PERMITS..."
The assumtions i was attempting to get at are embedded in the above quote. (givin, my cut-'n-paste fuck up clouded my message...)
the assumption of the existance of a system. What is the geopolitical location of the GNU linux movement? and whose juristiction is it? at this point it's nobodies. granted, nation states with strict libertarian constitutions would provide safe havens and potential hotbeds for all sorts of eletronic discourse, but the fact is that this net shit is more or else like that as we speak.
1) it's really hard to police.
2) information itself is not geopolitically rooted in any way. even if the us gov said, no more linux, all drives w/ linux or linux related material will be confiscated and the owners fined, linux would be dented or perhaps stifeled in it's growth, but would go on.
3) GNU is an agreement between us, put a lang they will understandf and be forced to respect.

this is the sence in which on a medial leve open source is anarchistic. since is exists in a medium without geopolitical bounds, esp. cuz of high speed and prolific replication, it exists without any system that rules it, libertarian or otherwise. we may not, but open source code is independent of those whom authored it.
Side Note
by Codifex Maximus ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:07PM
(User Info)

Corporations are free to become part of the LINUX community - there is NO price for addmission, no limits on what you can say, and no boundaries. You will, however, be subject to peer review just like we all are. Being a member of the LINUX community means being in a democracy that potentially spans the world AND is a great place for capitalism to flourish.

With cooperation from all involved, there is no limit to what we can do. :)

Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Face ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:10PM
(User Info)
I am saying that they do not progress as fast as they should, and I dont remember mentioning another magical system, this has turned very immature. I will not argue with the unreasonable.
Re: I like to code.
by A. Cowherd on Monday August 24, @03:11PM
(User Info)

> Must we learn politics to code?

No, but sometimes coding is a political act, or at least GPLing something is.
Re: Stallman and the GPL
by Andrew Sullivan ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:27PM
(User Info)
Noah Clements's argument merely begs the question. The response to the article included something like the premise, "Not everything is property." To respond, as Clements does, that thoughts "are so!" a kind of property is no response at all.
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:29PM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Read the subject: a piece of software isn't an idea. Software is the product of labor and expertise. The labor and knowledge necessary to implement software is not and never will be cost-free. The people who produce the implementations own the implementations.

In sane copyright law, you can't copyright an idea -- only the expression of an idea. Software is an expression, it is not the idea itself.

As for ideas from home shows -- their broadcast has been paid for by the advertisers, by tax payer money, or by the sponsoring companies. When I buy a product from one of the advertisers/sponsors or pay my taxes, I'm paying for access to those ideas.

I forgot that this is the Holy Church of Stallman, Prophet, and that dissent is Not Allowed. I'll remember that from now on.
Re: A little harsh
by Chad ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:30PM
(User Info)

Bill Gates is a monstrousity because he is a rich, powerful leader of the biggest software company, while still retaining his childish mentality.


Well, I only hope I become a monstrosity someday. But to be able to say this, you must know him pretty well, huh? Personally, I've never met him, and I don't like to base my opinions on internet rumor which may or may not be true, so I can't really comment on his childish mentality.

The point is, I'm sick of people pointing their fingers at bill gates saying "Look at the bad man!" Do I think Bill Gates is a menace to society? Absolutely not, I laugh at the idea. Do I think his company is a threat to innovation in the computer industry and should be regulated to encourage cosumer choice in a free market system? Absolutely.

Gift economy
by Justin Bradford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:33PM
(User Info)
> If I want something, I give the person who has it some capital in exchange for that thing.

Yes, but in this capitalistic exchange, everyone is trying to get each other to pay more than the value. That's the point. You're trying to make capital on the investment of your time producing the product. Success in capitalism means taking more than you give. That's why it's a take economy.

In a gift economy, you try to give more than you take. It translates very well into the free software world. If I have a program you could use, I give it to you. And likewise, I would expect you to do the same for me, if the situation arised. Note that is this not run by some government. If I know you and trust you to help me when you are in the position to do so, I'll help you when I can.
Tell me that isn't how things are run here.

Just curious, but has anyone read the Mars Trilogy (especially Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson? I think the political/economic/social concepts he used fit well here.
RMS uses both copyright and patent
by Karsten M. Self ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:34PM
(User Info) http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/
Stallman believes that software should be accessible to the masses, and that it is better when it is so. Experience with GNU, Linux, Apache, and the OSS movement suggests he may be right.

RMS uses the tools of IP to his ends -- both copyright, in the GPL, and patents -- he's long been trying to build a pool of "free" patents held by the FSF so that they can be used in free software and be used to bargain for non-free patents.

RMS uses intellectual property in the same way that public land trusts use real estate. By establishing property lines, boundaries, and usage guidelines, it is possible for many to share access to a park or a program.

My idiological motivations are quite different from RMS's, my methods and objectives in promoting free software through the mechanisms of copyright and patent are quite similiar.
Re: libertarian base of support
by jdm ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:35PM
(User Info)
Membership in the US Libertarian Party (an oxymoron?) is very small. And, like I said, it hasn't caught on elsewhere. For some basic information on the relative size of the libertarian movement and other useful information, take a look at the Non-Libertarian FAQ http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html .
Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by Robert Crawford ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:41PM
(User Info) http://www.iac.net/~crawford/
Software is a product in the same way legal advice, medical advice, and other forms of professional service are products. It's the result of combining expertise and effort to satisfy the needs of a customer.

I've been in the real world for five years and I've never shipped software on a CD or floppy. It's always been across a network -- either in the same building from development to production machines or by FTP'ing it to the customer.

They're not paying for development -- at least they don't think in those terms. They're paying for a functional, satisfactory program -- product -- at the end of the project.

If you think it's not a "real product" because it's not physical, then get your head out of the industrial age. An information economy is in part about selling knowledge and (as always) time. In this case those resources get wrapped into a package called "software".
Re: I like to code.
by Michiel Toneman ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:42PM
(User Info)

Fair enough, I realise that the implications
of the GPL and LGPL are pretty complex. However,
the more I learn and live with the GPL, the
more I respect it. The first time I read the
GPL was around 1990 with Ghostscript for the
Atari ST. The message certainly didn't sink in
then.

The way GPL got to me was rather like the way
I first installed MinT (Mint is not Tos, a small
multitasking kernel for the Atari). I was
expecting Big Things(tm) to happen, but everything
seemed to be just the same as before. When I
learned more about what MinT was and did, I became
more and more impressed.

The GPL at first seems Just Another Licence, but
the philosophy grows on you. It's well worth
reading and thinking about the essays on
www.gnu.org. The ideas Stallman has were not
something he thought up overnight, they were
molded by seeing "his" UNIX being sold, going
closed source and all the work of the community
being lost to the commercial Unices. He has spent
the past 20 years fighting to get back to the
freedom he had then, but with changed rules to
make sure that mistake could not be repeated.

Think of getting aquainted with the GPL, not as
a coding thing, but as an excercise in philosophy.
Re: libertarian base of support
by jdm ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:46PM
(User Info)
It's not a critique, it's a wake-up call. Libertarianism doesn't have a respectable history compared to other political movements. Some would call it a cult. Most arguments are based on a very narrow view of reality and most if not all of the core pro-libertarian writings are fundamentally flawed. See the Non-Libertarian FAQ for an excellent critique of many of the libertarian evangelist arguments http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html or for some pointers to telling articles on various Libertarian politicos at http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html.
Must we learn politics to code?
by chris keath ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:47PM
(User Info)
No, but if you want to know who your master is and what he's doing w/ your code...
I personally am out to avoid any manhatten project style regrets.
Bill Gates (Was: Re: A little harsh)
by Jon Lasser ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:53PM
(User Info) http://www.tux.org/~lasser/

The point is, I'm sick of people pointing their fingers at bill gates saying "Look at the bad man!" Do I think Bill Gates is a menace to society? Absolutely not, I laugh at the idea. Do I think his company is a threat to innovation in the computer industry and should be regulated to encourage cosumer choice in a free market system? Absolutely.

Forget for a moment Bill Gates as Microsoft. Bill Gates as an individual has the same net worth as the poorest 40% of Americans. That sort of financial imbalance invalidates the assumptions Smith, Friedman, et al make regarding free markets. That concentration of wealth is unthinkable, and in fact reduces any sort of benefits to society from the "free market." It's like the Anatole France (?) comment that the law, in all its majesty, forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges.

And I'd like to point out that the concept of "regulating" Microsoft is antithetical to the free market, so your position is at best inconsistent. It's not the purpose of the free market to "encourage choice": theory claims that choice will develop naturally, and any sort of encouragement is an artificial force. (Note: I don't agree with this personally, I'm merely noting that it's the logical outgrowth of your position, yet something you deny.)

Objectivist philosophy is a Fad!
by Garrett Nelson ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @03:55PM
(User Info)
One reason that I'm glad that I'm still in High School, is this bull shit. Let's face it, this objectionist crap is a total fad, along with bottled water. To just worry about yourself is such an unreal way to look at the world, and I hang around too many people with a big ego. Flames will be ignored....as usual.
not only americans
by Luis Espinal ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @04:01PM
(User Info) http://www.cs.fiu.edu
I'm an American citizen, but most of my life I was a Nicaraguan citizen and forever a proud member of the Nicaraguan people. When someone equates communism with USSR dictatorship, it's because they are the same. Forget about the theotetical retorical nonsense and communist romanticism. As far as I have experienced it, tyranny equates communism in practice. The only country I've known that had a communist rule w/o tyranny was San Marino (and because of people's vote) If communism were so good, then we should have seen a truly communist nation already, and we don't because communism is unattainable. Your idea of communism is just a theoretical curiosity. Marx's ideals were fixated for a late 18th society controled by the bourguouse and the manipulative state-church. These ideas are no longer applicable. Besides, it was Marx who said that revolution was the pains of labor of a society giving birth to another, clearly a call for violence (which of course is justified when the people have no other means to defend themselves.) Communism is unnatural since it attemps to explain human nature by means of economy (yet it failed to explain Israelite monotheism when Israelites evolved economically the same as other neighboring societies.) It attempts to remove private property, when it is human nature to posses what it is earned, to be greedy, to be proud, to be satisfied. It attempts to centralize power and ownership into the state, a sure way to create an unbounded, unwatched, eternal tyranny. In a communist society, it would be bound to create casts of workers, thus a differentiation among them. It attempts deliveratedly or by consequence to remove the idea of God by equating him as the result of economic evolution. This is clearly against human nature to explain the creation and human existence in terms of a greater objective, against the notion that humanity is more and above the result of random evolution (whether that's true or false,that's another issue,yet the idea of God is part of human nature.) In summary, communism for better or worse is incompatible with the nature of man.

Communism as it has existed equates tyranny not only from the ussr, but also from China, Cambodya, Nicaragua, Cuba, and many other nations. Millions stand as witnesses, and millions more left their bones as proof of it. Your idea of communism is romantic at best, but impractical, unrealistic, out of this world, and will never be attainable.

Luis Espinal.
Propaganda
by Paul ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @04:20PM
(User Info)
As a card carrying member of the CPUSA i feel that i should prolly post something about this subject. And the only thing i can assume is that the author had only 1 thing in mind and that was to get people to join his movement. "Well if i can show that capitalism==GNU then fellow GNUers will join my organization or whatever".

I think its rather dumb to compare open source to a "real life" economic movement. As everyone knows an economy is a method to deal with scarcity, and in open source you have an infinite amount of a product. Open Source is based on there is no scarcity and you can share without any problems of unequal distribution of wealth. Which is totally true, one cannot be more richer by having more GNU programs on one's hd. Until the day that production of wealth and services is as easy as a few click of keys then GNU should not be compared with outside economic models.

I think Libertarians should maybe think more about getting the federal government from taking their well deserved wealth then about Open Source.
Also i think communists/socialists should start worrying more about the working class and their struggle.

Open Source is an economic model that exists in a different world and "real life" economics and politics dont apply.
Can you say meme?
by A. Danger Powers ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @04:26PM
(User Info)
From Richard Dawkins` book The selfish gene. It`s meant to sound like gene and memory,it`s basicly any idea.Like the GPL, general relativity or Mozart`s le nozze di figaro.Those that get replicated in the minds of others survive those that do not die(of course this doesn`t have to happen directly it can be recorded and then replicate thousands of years in the future,like the hyroglyphs(sp?)).
Re: Can't work on a large scale
by Zopilote ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @04:29PM
(User Info)
That's not a bureaucracy. The parents rule but out of love; they want the best for their children. Bureaucracies on a national level deal with people they do not know or love. Don't try to tell me that they will just selflessly sacrifice their resources and time like parents do for their children. They're in it for themselves.

If you want to know the difference, it is the human factor again. People work for the good of those they know and care for, but will avoid going out of their way for the sake of those they don't know. If you think otherwise, you have an unrealistically angelic view of human nature.
Re: Communism in practice
by JEDIDIAH ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @04:32PM
(User Info) penguin.lvcm.com
The USSR never claimed to have actually achieved Communism. They were always just 'building it'. We might want to keep this in mind while evaluating it. 'Communism' thus far has consisted of self-defeating attempts to unnaturally bring about something by putting in place it's exact opposite.

Re: Copyright/Copyleft
by Andrew Bell on Monday August 24, @04:33PM
(User Info)
>I am saying that they do not progress as fast as they should

There is no "should."

Your original statement was that capitalism can be an obstacle to progress. An interesting and arguable point. As evidence to this, you pointed to the bugginess of video card drivers. I assume from this most recent remark, you wish to extend this to cover the state of the video card market in general.

If capitalism is an obstacle to progress in this respect, what economic system would have provided better results, and why?
Capitalism and self-interest
by whee! on Monday August 24, @04:37PM
(User Info)
Everyone is primarily self-interested. How would you feel if you had to work 40 hours a week, but someone else kept getting your pay because "they needed it more"? Capitalism is a way of making this self-interest work to everyone's advantage. In a capitalist society, to act in self-interest is to be productive. In a communist society, to act in self-interest is to appear needy.
Re: collectivism
by vlax ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @04:38PM
(User Info)
Look, I agree with you about collectivism not being the great evil many like to make it out to be. Collectivism in the former Eastern Bloc was a lot more like surfdom than any other system. People were forced onto joint farms, deprived of any ownership of the products of their labour, and then forbidden form leaving to find better jobs. Collectivism doesn't have to work that way - there's a world of voluntary, highly effective cooperatives in almost every country in the world, even America.

Just __PLEASE__ don't call Chomsky the father of modern linguistics. Whatever anyone may think of his political writings, abstract entities are the wrongest imaginable way to analyse grammar, and he's nuts to think syntax can be analysed apart from semantics. In a lot of ways, he's taken my line of work backwards. Trust me, I should know.
Re: amusing
by vlax ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @05:02PM
(User Info)
Y'know, I used to make a living analysing dictionaries. They may be good for basic speling and getting the gist of strange words, but as sources of truth they're ludicrous.

You have penetrated to a serious problem in this debate, the one of terminology. A nation, idea, or group of people can call themselves socialist, another group can call themselves capitalist. Does that mean whatever the socialist group does is socialist, and whetever the capitalist group does is capitalist? The US Senate is just loaded with people who will swear loyalty to Milton Freedman anytime you like, but they still do lots of highly uncapitalist things.

If socialism is defined as government ownership, it's well worth opposing. If that is your definition, let me be the first to speak out against socialism. If what you mean by socialism is the literal interpretation of the dictionary definition you provide, I'm dead against it.

Others have not always defined it that way. A better and more accurate dictionary definition would have been as follows:

Socialism is a group of ides derived, or claiming derviation from, the works of Karl Marx, among others.

Now, that's pretty big grab bag. Marx said a lot of stuff, and people have done a lot of different things with it. Lenin and Stalin claimed derivation from Marxist ideas, but did exactly the opposite of what syndicalist movements in Europe and western liberal governments, who also claimed derivation from Marxist ideas, did. Anthropology these days finds significant inspiration in Marx,as does sociology and even branches of theology.

So, which is the real socialism? Well, from a linguist and semantician's standpoint, there's no reason to declare any of them more socialist than another. But, from the political scientist's point of view, it's essential to make differentiations between various socialisms. French socialism has championed the rights of individuals to legal and social jusitice, Latin American socialism has mostly been about giving land to the peasants, Leninism seems mostly to be about shooting royalty, while Stalinism is about using forced labour to build giant factories.

Some of these goals are laudible (at least in my opinion) others are not.

Everyone here who makes statements about socialism, communism or Marxism refers to some ideology of their own, or taken from someone else, or some __perceived__ ideology derived from careful study, or just from how the word is used on the evening news.

I agree that if we're going to talk about capitalism and socialism, we need to examine what we mean by each. I'm pretty partial to the original works of Marx and want nothing to do with Lenin or Stalin, and consider Maoism and the writings of Che Guevara, while very interesting, to be fundamentally unrelated to Marx. Not that I take Marx as a religious text either. I think he waves his hands a little to skip over stuff he doesn't want to deal with, and sometimes, I flatly disagree with his analysis, but on the whole I like what I read there.

For capitalism, I'm going by Adam Smith, to some extent Locke, and a lot of Austrian and Chicago school types, like Freedman and others cited in the original essay. Sometimes, I agree with these guys analysis, even if I think the conclusions are wrong.

I'll gladly take this debate forward, although Slashdot strikes me as the wrong place to do it, given that we can agree to defintions. If the above doesn't correspond to your definitions, I'll gladly refer to them as Vlaxian socialism and Vlaxian capitalism.
The Internet is/was big government.
by Gary Burke ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @05:22PM
(User Info)
I find it odd how all these anarcho-capitalist
libertarians go around hating the government
when it was the government and tax dollars that
originally built the network upon which they so
happily spout their doctrines, and until
1994 was almost entirely controlled by the government which they so despise, and how, if
you talk to any old school netizen they
will invariably tell you how great things
were before the net became 'commercialized'
in the mid 90s. And it's often these old
school netizens who are staunchly anti-government.
Except, I guess, when the government is giving
them free networks upon which to write free
software and argue about how bad the government
is.


Funny, really.
Re: Communism
by Chris Church ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @05:37PM
(User Info)
Every system in theory is a really great idea. Every system in practice is totally different. It's that damned human factor... ;)

We're only a few hundred thousand years away from living in caves and being incapable of verbal communications. Maybe it's possible mankind has not evolved enough for any system to work, and until humanity gets its shit together, every system will have corruption and greed.
Re: Gift economy
by Andrew Bell ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @05:46PM
(User Info)
"Success in capitalism means taking more than you give. That's why it's a take economy."

Not at all.

Success means exchanging something that is worth more to *you* than what you are exchanging. However, the other person will not do the exchange unless what he is giving you is worth less to *him* than what you are giving him. Both sides get.

My labor for 40+ hours a week is worth less to me than the salary my employer pays me. My salary (plus other costs) is worth less to my employer than what I can produce during my working time. We both profit.
Re: amusing
by Sebastian Schaffert ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @05:59PM
(User Info) http://www.woanders.de/~wastl/
I simply wanted to say that you cannot conclude, that because the GPL contains capitalistic elements (which are mainly protecting the software from misusage by commercial organisations) Open Source Software is contrary to socialism. You try to found your arguments on the fact that the GPL is more capitalist but I think it's the other way round, so it is IMHO a loop-conclusion (Sorry for that very poor English - I'm not a native speaker as you may have recognized:-) ).
In my opinion, the real point is democracy (as I already pointed out in another comment), not capitalism or socialism. If you have a democratic socialism, there would be something similar to the GPL (I can not, however, imagine what, because we live in a more or less capitalist world, at least in the US and in Europe) to protect OSS (which would perhaps not be named Open Source then).
On the other hand, if you would live in a totalitarian capitalism, would there be Open Source Software (without the risk of going to prison)? Neither would it exist in a totalitarian socialism (like the USSR etc).
In fact, Finland is the best example (at least compared with the US, UK, Germany or even Sweden) for a rather socialist democracy, and one of the greatest pieces of software has its roots there.

Sebastian
Re: Totally wrong-and GPL != communism
by brn ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @06:01PM
(User Info)
>it is not impossible for IP to be abolished this

It is. It's protected by companies. In the US, companies enforce the law. That's what you get
when you try to implement the free market, you
blur policy and economy in a quite dangerous way.

As for classical anarchy: As a human being (or
a rational being really), freedom and happiness
are normally the end you are seeking. Anarchy
deprives you of your freedom (you are subject
to the randomness of other people's will)

About open source, it's equal to communism if
you are an idealist. But who's writing open source
for the sake of the moral law and giving it to others? :)

Wondering who else here lives in a country where
philosphy at school is mandatory? ...

brn
218 posts!
by TedC ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @06:18PM
(User Info)
Wow, 218 posts so far. You'd think this was about LSA or something! ;-)

I agree with about half the article; I'm not sure about the rest yet. I can see from reading some of the other responses that there are a lot of people who had their mind made up before they even read the article. That's sort of like saying "I'll never know more than I do today".

Re: The Internet is/was big government.
by Chad Slaughter ([email protected].) on Monday August 24, @06:51PM
(User Info)
As an anarcho-capitalist I resent being grouped

with libertarians.



Re: not only americans
by James Baird ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @06:52PM
(User Info)
And here I was going to stay out of this discussion...

Far be it from me to argue with someone about their own country, but do you seriously blame the Sandinistas (whatever thier real problems may have been) for the country's misery and not the terrorist war carried out by U.S. proxy forces? Given the unremitting terror and economic warfare by the most powerful country in the world on a tiny, virtually defenseless nation, I think the Sandinistas did rather well.
Re: The Internet is/was big government.
by Gary Burke ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @06:59PM
(User Info)
Fair enough, but to use the government-built
Internet while advocating the dismantling of the government that
brought it to you is the height of hypocrisy.

May I suggest private enterprise's answer to
the Internet, AOL or MSN. That's what the
whole Net would be were it not for the evil Big Government.

Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by Jamie Cameron ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @07:35PM
(User Info) http://www.webmin.com/
>> "modern famine.... [is] a political problem."
> Oh my, if that's not a Pandora's Box containing
> infinite amounts of dogma....
> Politics, economics, and a million other things
> are intertwined. To that extent, politics is
> involved.
> Otherwise, economics is _about_ meeting needs
> (usually material/financial needs), and if
> famine doesn't exemplify an economic failure,
> then I don't know what would.

Clearly famine is an economic failure. However,
I think what the previous poster was getting at
is that famine is not a failure of capitalism.

Look at countries in which famine is currently
a problem today, such as North Korea (a closed
communist dictatorship) or Sudan (engaged in
a civil war between christians and moslems).
None of them are societies in which the rule
of law is established or private property is
respected.

Can you name any non-corrupt, capitalist countries
that have experienced famine over the last 50 years?

- Jamie

Flawed logic
by Reptile ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @08:09PM
(User Info)

The example with the pencil doesn't work if the pencil is free.

POLL!! POLL!! POLL!!
by Rodion Raskolnikov on Monday August 24, @08:33PM
(User Info)
People, it amazes me that some one can equate Linux, a shining example of sharing and cooperation, with capitalism, a system based on hoarding and selfishness.

In any case, this topic has been done to death. The only thing left to do is to take a Slashdot poll on the subject.

Linux is a triumph for:

a. Capitalism

b. Socialism

c. Neither

POLL!! POLL!! POLL!!
Doesn't this sound like GNU project?
by The Qube ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @08:47PM
(User Info)
"To each according to their needs, from each according to their abilities", Marx
Re: I like to code.
by W. Kiernan ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:20PM
(User Info)
Do you need to do politics to code? Why Hell no, no more than you need to know how to grow food to code. But for you to code, SOMEBODY has to know how to grow food, because you can't code if you've starved to death.

And for you to continue to code, or at least to continue to code in such a way that you enjoy doing it, SOMEBODY has to do Open Source Software and the GNU Public License and all that legalistic type of stuff, because otherwise the big commercial software megaliths will tie up the entire software field much as Standard Oil hog-tied the oil-production business about a century ago.

Oh, yeah, if the big companies (should I say "company"? and need I specify which company? didn't think so...) get that lock on software creation they dream of night and day, you'll be able to code, all right. You'll pin your employee badge to your shirt, and walk through the metal detector, and sit down at your secure workstation to grind out the code bits that the higher-ups decide you should be working on. You'll never see the finished product, unless of course you buy a shrink-wrapped box in the store. And if someone makes a big fat profit off anything you invent, that someone will be a stockholder, never a coder.

So you just keep on coding, and have a good time doing it, but don't forget, every now and then, to tip your hat and say, "Thanks, Richard Stallman!"

Yours WDK - [email protected]
Maslow Upside Down
by John Dell ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:51PM
(User Info)
Your reply made me think about something I learned in a psychology class called Maslow's scale. Essentially, it is a scale of needs graduating from food, shelter, providing for family, and finally altruism. I probably missed one of the steps in between but the key is altruism. This is the pinnacle of man's existence where he can give back to the community.

I think the open source is about altruism, and speaks about the quality and character of the people involved.

Perhaps ego is the 'currency', but the reason the 'ego currency' works is altruism. It makes you feel good.
Re: libertarian base of support
by Danny Yee ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @09:53PM
(User Info) http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/
Isn't it odd that probably 95% of this group is 1) male 2) white 3) between 18-30 4) affluent 5) US citizens 6) watches Star Trek and reads sci-fi/fantasy almost exclusively.
Hey, is that a description of libertarians or of the slashdot readership? :-)

Danny. (who reads more than sci-fi and fantasy, isn't the least bit interested in Star Trek, and lives in Australia, but otherwise fits the stereotype -- well, maybe with the Australian dollar going the way it is "affluent" is a bit doubtful, too.)

Re: Doesn't this sound like GNU project?
by David Maxwell ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:07PM
(User Info)
But even Stallman wouldn't put a bullet through the back of someone's head for using Windows. Real communists would do far worse to punish 'ideological errors'.

Someone compared Open Source to academic communities earlier. This is probably a more apt metaphor for Open Source than any economic system. Open Source doesn't seem to be particularly compatible or incompatible with any economic system. In the US companies like Red Hat can make money from it without disenfranchising the vast pool of developers and yet a stauch socialist can use the software without a qualm.
Re: amusing
by Robert King ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:26PM
(User Info) http://www.ens.gu.edu.au/robertk/
I repeat Danny Yee's statement, which I think is
a quote from one of the open source papers, that
the GPL is there to protect the "gift economy" from the depredations of the market outside.

Us "socialist weenies" would *restrict* closed-source appropriation of open source software because of convictions about "ownership" of the code, not in spite of it.
Re: GPL is not private property. Sorry.
by Robert King ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @10:35PM
(User Info) http://www.ens.gu.edu.au/robertk/
Like Danny Yee said, like Jeffrey Davis said, the GPL is a legal fiction that protects the way we in the free software community treat code.

It has to be expressed in terms of ownership, copyright and licences, because that's the only way to protect our way of dealing with code from the way the capitalistic market outside deals with "intellectual property". It doesn't imply that we like or even agree with the philosophical basis of such as system, just that the FSF was realistic about the kind of world we live in.
Monopoly, the game
by Anthony Taylor ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:42PM
(User Info)
Have most folks here played the game of Monopoly? Yes? Who wins the game?

My point is, SOMEone always wins the game, by making everyone else go broke. By running them out of business, as it were. Yes, I know Monopoly does not work on the free-market principle of "may the best business win," but the *goal* is the same. To run everyone else out of business.

This whole essay tries to place free/open-source software into a straightjacket, into a second-wave ideal of "capitalism."

I have said it many, many times: Free/Open source software is a THIRD-WAVE phenomenon. It DOES NOT belong in ANY second-wave idealogical structure. In fact, Free/Open-source software is the first purely third-wave event.

There. I said it, and I feel better.

- Tony

PS: "Second" and "Third wave" are defined in Alvin Toffler's incredibly insightful book, "The Third Wave," written, what, about 15 years ago. It describes, in amazing detail, the principles that led to the growth and acceptance of free/open-source software. If you haven't read it yet, please do. It will put a lot of this debate in a new context.
Umm... narf.
by Pinky ([email protected]) on Monday August 24, @11:45PM
(User Info) http://www.cam.org/~jiggs/pirate/
Open Source requires the protection of private property rights by a
government.
While government protection of property rights may help open source in
some cases
===============
Open Source is a type of lisence and an "ideal". Without the general class of private property rights, lisenses could not exist, from my understanding. Therefore openscourse would not survive in its form as defined in: http://www.opensource.org/osd.html as an iplementation of the open source ideal.

Open source as ideal might be valuable, but such conjecture is academic, since the current context (that of feasability) requires an implemetation in order to be evaluated and without the existance of private property laws, there would only be two possibilities with regard to code. Either every knows it or it's secret. Open source does not seem to be a useful idea with such a limited possibility space. Open source: as opposed to what? Perhaps a different word would be in order, so as to differentiate this implementation from the implementation with property laws? Not only that but a different word for opensource as an ideal; I sudgest just plain "Open". :-/

At any rate, I'm just mussing here. This seems to be a big debate. Remeber to use the same deffinitions as each other; ie: Is open source and ideal or implementation? -

visit me at: http://www.cam.org/~jiggs/pirate/
Sorry, borther
by Philip Gwyn on Tuesday August 25, @12:58AM
(User Info)
A very well thought out and well writen article. But for once, I whole-heartedly disagree.

It really is to bad that the author doesn't understand capitalism. Let us look at the shining examples of laissez-faire capitalism around us :

- Microsoft
- Soft drinks (coke or pepsi)
- Clothing (everone looks the same)
- Magasines (Arthur Black, anyone?)

Capitalism (like all systems) searches for stability. In most cases this is monopoly, near-monopoly or a cartel-like arrangement (4 banks for all of Canada). This should be SELF-EVIDENT to anyone with their eyes open. Pepsi has bought up and closed down countless small-local softdrink makers. Pizzahut (owned by Pepsi, eh) in Moscow... is this choice? Or just the same old bildge.

Read up on some Hakim Bey, then try again.

-Philip
Animals
by Mr. M. ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @03:27AM
(User Info)
I don't know that Open Source is a platypus, defying usual classification. I mean, Linux is Open Source, but Linux is a penguin, defying the dominant paradigm...
Re: Back-asswards!
by Jadawin ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @05:16AM
(User Info)

The pie can be grown. The *average* standard of living in the world today, even with many many times the people, is immeasurably greater than 1000 or even 100 years ago. If "Capitalism niether adds to the Earth's natural capacity, nor increases everyone's living standards. It increases the living standards of some, at the expense of others." were true, this could not be the case. The fact is, college students can afford to live in their naive collectivist dream world because someone else is footing the bill. Reality, the ultimate lab for ideas, has already rejected these concepts as unworkable, and it's pathetic to see them hanging on.
Re: Wrong! Did you ever read the GPL ???
by Alex Farran on Tuesday August 25, @05:29AM
(User Info)
Well there's the paradox. In a totally free system you don't have the freedom to restrict other peoples freedom.

If there was no such thing as copyright, there would be no need for the GPL. The GPL only exists to protect free software from a non-free system.

Alex

Re: not only americans
by Jadawin ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @05:47AM
(User Info)

Thank you, Luis- you hit the nail right on the head.
Re: Communism
by Brad Andrews on Tuesday August 25, @06:01AM
(User Info)
our pal Marx had even more heinous things in mind than Stalin when he laid out the tenets of communism. How do you explain the idea that women should be as much community property as your local coal mine? Sick sick stuff, man.
Go buy a clue...
by Per I Mathisen ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @06:21AM
(User Info)
As someone who has actually studied Marx quite a bit, reading rubbish like this is really annoying. Can you spell "FUD"?

- per
Re: Communism in practice
by skydancer ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @06:27AM
(User Info) http://www.cix.co.uk/~skydancer/
Hard to say in retrospect, but certainly there have been a number of cases of potentially humane communism being sabotaged from outside. Allende's Chile, Dubcek's Czechoslovakia and Sandinista Nicaragua come immediately to mind.

As indeed do the Anarchist collectives in civil war Spain - on a theoretical level, there's no ultimate distinction between communism and anarchism, just that anarchists are (justifiably :) cynical about the chances of a "worker's state" "withering" away and as such bypass that particular stage in communist theory...

Pete

Re: Communism in practice
by skydancer ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @06:37AM
(User Info) http://www.cix.co.uk/~skydancer/
Your theoretical capitalism might be good for something, but it is unfortunately completely unrealistic, or it would have happened in at least one capitalist state (with positive results).

Quite. Idealised free-market capitalism bears as much resemblance to anything that has ever happened in recorded history as theoretical communism does to Stalinism.

As long as individuals and organisations have the power to distort the market (and corporations have as much, if not more, power to do this than states) we will not have a free market. And behaving as though we have is a waste of space.

Acknowledging the distortions of the market and then subverting them is another matter entirely - this IMO is the power and the delight of the Open Source movement.

Pete

Re: Software is not an idea (was: not all libertar
by skydancer ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @07:42AM
(User Info) http://www.cix.co.uk/~skydancer/
Hey! You think that's abstract? There are corporations who think they own DNA sequences in my body and, what's worse, the absurd patent laws in the US (and increasingly elsewhere) actually back this up.

Insanity...

Trouble is, software patents mean that I can't risk using algorithms that I sussed out for myself without doing a patent search and drug patents mean that people in a 3rd-world country that happens to harbour a plant that a pharmeceutical multinational wishes to exploit have to pay to use it themselves.

Sorry.

End of off-topic rant.

Pete

Somolia Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by drsoran on Tuesday August 25, @08:21AM
(User Info)
The relief WAS available in Somolia but the warlords and the idiot populace kept attacking the people that were trying to help feed them.
Re: 'social standards' - pressing problem?
by drsoran on Tuesday August 25, @08:24AM
(User Info)
Could you define "non-corrupt, capitalist country" please? :-)
Things to Come
by saw2th ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @08:51AM
(User Info)
I don't believe open source is an example of capitalism in action, more a foretaste of things to come.

Is the Linux T-shirt the first open-source material product. ie. designed by its users? Can we look forward to open source breaking into the world of things? How about open-source PCs, hi-fis, bicycles, cars?


Re: closer to research than capitalism
by Dean Stathos ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @10:06AM
(User Info)
>And, as everyone knows, the Soviet Union had good >publishing scientists, just as the >freedom-loving, capitalistic USA does.

Yea, but people still have to eat. And then, once they have gorged themselves with food, people will still want a larger home, a better car, etc...

That was the difference between the scientists at the USSR and the ones in the US. When the scientists in the USSR went home, they went to a small apartment driving a old car, watching TV in a beat-up television. The scientists in the US, came home in newly leased vehicles (BMW probably), got home and went out with their husbands/wifes to an Italian restaurant. Came back home and watched Titanic on DVD with their 48 inch TV.

Both set of scientists have good ideas, but, who has the better life? A happy scientist is a good scientist--the USSR scientists eventually became "sad" scientists because they were living a life they didn't like.

Open Source has nothing to do with capitalism, communism, socialism, or any other "ism" in the English language. It has everything to do with a way for people to express themselves in a format that is understandable to them. Eventually, though, everyone wants to live a "good" life--whatever that definition is. If Open Source can do that for enough people, then it will thrive and you will see great products come out of that system.

Netscape and Corel have decided to try the Open Source route of developing a product only because they think that their companies will thrive on this ideal. When their companies thrive, they make money which then allows them to have the type of life that they want. If money was not an issue, they wouldn't be selling their software.
Open Source and Capitalism--so what?!
by Dean Stathos ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @10:22AM
(User Info)
Open Source has nothing to do with capitalism. It has nothing to do with socialism nor does it with communism or any other "ism".

Open Source is a set of rules designed to produce products (software products). If these rules are applied correctly, Open Source products can be made within a capitalistic, communistic, socialistic, or any other "istic" environment.

There are no specific societal elements of Open Source that makes it different or similar to any other set of rules. Sure, there needs to exist cooperation amongst many people/entities for Open Source to succeed--but that is the same for anything else in this world--even human life itself.

So, before these discussions go any further, please take a look at what Open Source really is and shed the notions Open Source's associations with any "ism".
Re: is media not money
by Rene S. Hollan ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @10:56AM
(User Info)
Ah, now i see your angle!

Certainly, open source can evolve independant of some particular political system. However, I think that we're in agreement that a laissez-faire ("leave alone") free market, with no governnment interference from a libertarian government makes such evolution much easier than an interventionist one.

Libertarianism as all about non-intervention in peaceful economic competition with the precise intent of providing the most fruitful environment in which new and novel products and services can evolve, as opposed to the view that some government can pick and direct what products and services are "necessary".

That said, you are correct in noting that it is very difficult to police open source efforts and shut them down. Perhaps that was your point all along and I missed it. Still, an environment that is conducive to open source software is better than one that attempts to snuff it out (in order, to, say, "protect" "legitimate" software companies).

I submit that open source development would suffer greatly if programming without a "license" were treated the same way as practicing medicine without one, or were even punishible by death. Stupider laws have been passed, and I do not subscribe to the "it can't happen here" denouncers. Of course, neither am I paranoid that this is likely to happen RSN.

Certainly, such laws would not kill the movement completely, but why ASK for tougher conditions?

Libertarians are justified in pointing to open source efforts and saying, "See what good happens when you leave people alone. Let's make sure that they continue to be left alone." Libertarianism does not lead directly to open source development and thus can't take credit for it, but it DOES oppose state attempts to protect those who "suffer" because of the open source phenomenon.

At the same time, many libertarians oppose any anti-trust actions against monopolies or near-monopilies like Microsoft. After all, the open source movement thrives IN SPITE OF Microsoft.

Open source development and libertarianism are quite compatible. I'm not sure the same can be said about open sourse development and either communism or American-style capitalism.

As far as RMS's arguments that software should be unowned making him a socialist, or communist, I disagree. TMK, he has never argued that force be used to wrest code away from people, rather, that ownership of software be shunned for moral reasons. RMS has demonstrated sound economic arguments that show this to be the "right" thing for economic reasons as well -- a far more significant feat, IMHO, since morality is subjective and economic reality isn't.

Regards,

Rene
Re: Doesn't this sound like GNU project?
by Raoul Golan on Tuesday August 25, @09:48PM
(User Info)
Marx didn't put a bullet through anyone's head, though admittedly Stalin probably did.

All that can be said, then, is that GNU is not Stalinism.
Re: No Subject Given
by Andy Bakun ([email protected]) on Tuesday August 25, @11:42PM
(User Info)
I disagree. Look at the periods in history when the traditional models were conceived. Don't all economic models deal with scarcity (the difference between supply and demand (of resources, whatever they may be) is what defines the existance and necessity of an economy. Admittedly, I have not done a lot of research into economic writings, but few of the examples and trends in the classic works deal with IP and non-physical resources in general. All I'm saying is that it may be easier to deal with a non-physical resources economy if it is described in it's own terms, rather than those ideas used for more traditional economies -- a joining of traditional ideals to make a new ideal, or a complete new and independant ideal not based on previous and current ideals.
Re: libertarian base of support
by Glen Raphael ([email protected]) on Thursday August 27, @10:23PM
(User Info) http://pobox.com/~liberty
Huben's Non-Libertarian FAQ is pretty worthless. Here's one of many good responses to it:

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Libertarian/response_to_huben.html

My favorite feature of Huben's faq is that he criticizes books he hasn't read for features they don't have, and also lists as sources books he hasn't read. Huben unfortunately doesn't take his opponents seriously enough to actually listen to what they have to say.

Huben is a crank
by Glen Raphael ([email protected]) on Thursday August 27, @10:34PM
(User Info) http://pobox.com/~liberty
Mike Huben's Non-Libertarian FAQ is not an excellent critique of anything. Here's one of many good responses to it:

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Libertarian/response_to_huben.html

Huben doesn't take his opponents seriously enough to actually listen to what they have to say, so he mostly ends up criticizing others for what are merely his own failings.

When you say "most of the core pro-libertarian writings are fundamentally flawed," can you be more specific as to which books, essays or articles you are referring to, and possibly how they are flawed? If your only source is Huben, you might as well retract the statement now, since as far as I can tell Huben has never read any "core pro-libertarian writings". Are you refering to the writings of Friedrich Hayek? Milton Friedman? David Friedman? Murray Rothbard? Rose Wilder Lane?

At the time Huben first wrote his FAQ he had never even read "Libertarianism In One Lesson" yet saw fit to criticize it as evangelical and easily debunked. Strangely, though, he never did any actual debunking...

Monopoly is a GAME!!!
by Glen Raphael ([email protected]) on Thursday August 27, @10:51PM
(User Info) http://pobox.com/~liberty
In real life if you build more housing the amount of rent you can charge goes DOWN, not up. And the fact that Donald Trump chooses to build an expensive hotel on Park Place affects me not a whit because I choose not to stay in it.

The goal in the game of capitalism is to gain through trade with others who also gain through trade with you. The pie isn't fixed, so everybody wins.

Toffler is a nut. There. I said it, and I feel better. :-)

-Glen
Your demographics are off.
by Glen Raphael ([email protected]) on Friday August 28, @05:37PM
(User Info) http://pobox.com/~liberty
JDM:

Women and minorities are seriously overrepresented among libertarian candidates and some of the most influential voices in the libertarian movement have been female writers, most notably Rose Wilder Lane and Ayn Rand.

The first woman ever to receive an electoral vote for president in the United States was libertarian candidate Tonie Nathan in 1972.

The best-known libertarian political activists in California are all black or female; among these are Richard Rider - who has saved taxpayers millions of dollars by fighting tax and bond measures all the way to the supreme court and winning - and Bonnie Flickinger who has done a lot of good as mayor and as councilmember.

Regarding the age range you give: Milton Friedman is about 80 and a lot of the people he influenced with _Free to Choose_ and _Capitalism and Freedom_ in the mid-1970s are now in their forties or beyond. Many second- or third-generation libertarians are under 18, although it's hard to know how many since 17-year-olds aren't allowed to vote.

As for "US citizens": there is an major organization called the International Society for Individual Liberty; libertarianism in other countries often tends to go by the name of "liberalism" but it certainly exists.

I guess I've hit every claim you just made about libertarian demographics except for the bit about watching Star trek and reading sci-fi/fantasy. I'm not sure how we'd get evidence either way on that one, but given the rest of your track record I'm a bit wary to accept the claim on faith alone. The Laissez-Faire catalog is filled with libertarian books and not very much in the way of sci-fi or fantasy. Sure, there are a lot of libertarian science-fiction authors and sci-fi books (starting with Robert Heinlein's classic _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_) but mainstream libertarian voices such as Drew Carey, Dave Barry and Penn & Teller broaden the appeal considerably beyond that.
Huben is a crank
by Glen Raphael ([email protected]) on Friday August 28, @07:25PM
(User Info) http://pobox.com/~liberty
Huben's Non Libertarian FAQ is a mess. Some of the problems with it are detailed here:

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Libertarian/response_to_huben.html

Correction note re Nathan
by Glen Raphael ([email protected]) on Friday August 28, @10:12PM
(User Info) http://pobox.com/~liberty
Tonie Nathan WAS the first woman in history to receive an electoral vote in a US presidential election, but she was actually running on the _vice-presidential_ spot of the Libertarian ticket.

FYI, American Indian activist Russell Means was the runner-up candidate for the LP presidential nomination in 1988.

  A long memory is the most subversive idea in America.
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